I I don't know this

I don't have a data point on this

but I would guess

it's usually moms that figure it out first

or interesting because we're

my kids laugh at me I'm the knock and enter right

I'm not knocking waiting for a mom come in

I think

I'd like to think most moms are a little bit wired

like me where it's like I'm knocking

but I'm already coming in

hello and welcome back to raising men

today on the Raising Men podcast

we are joined by Liz Ortunburger

Liz is the CEO of Safe Nest

which is Nevada's largest and most comprehensive

non profit addressing domestic and sexual violence

and she's a thought leader

reshaping how the world should think about abuse

Liz thanks for joining us and welcome to raising men

thank you for having me so you

I you are an expert on things that I

I really struggle with how to think about these things

and I so I just want to start off by saying

I'm coming from a place of I

I don't I I

I don't feel like I know what I'm talking about

I don't feel like I uh

have a really um

important viewpoint on this

I want I

I wanna understand and I want you to teach me

and so I'm so looking forward to this conversation and

and hopefully um

we uh uh

you can give me the Grace of asking all the stupid

questions that I can think of ask away that this is a

this is a difficult space for most of us to navigate

I just happen to work in it every day

so I have a little bit of a larger

contextual knowledge than most people

I love it well

so um

and you know what frankly

we should be talking about it a lot more than we do um

it's I

I think that we have so many um

kind of cultural mores

against really opening up about sex and sexuality

and that creates some pathologies in

in our minds about it and it's

and and it

and those pathologies cause things to to come out in

in ways that are that are really unhealthy

and so the more we talk about it

the less that is likely to happen

absolutely so I wanna start off by uh

by talking about something that

I've been thinking a lot about recently and um

and that is pornography you know

when I

I remember when I was growing up

we had this

we had this satellite dish in our backyard

and with the old school satellite

you know today you get direct TV

and the satellite dish just points

at the geosynchronous

satellite and you get all the TV

but back then

the satellites would move around in the sky

and you had to aim to to get a particular channel

you would have to aim the satellite towards uh towards

or aim your dish towards one satellite

or a different satellite or a different satellite

and so and if you were uh

if you knew what you were doing

you could aim your dish at the satellites that had

the other naked channels and they were unscramble

and I remember as a kid we would

we would scan the sky

for an hour to get a six second glimpse of boobs or

yeah or we'd have a buddy who

who had stolen his dad's playboy

and we would furtively be looking at it

and that was the

that was that was the exposure to porn that we have

and my son when he's 15 years old

he's gonna have a device in his pocket

that is just a veritable fire hose of porn

accessible to him and by the way

it's not like I can get rid of his phone

he needs it to connect with his employers

and his teachers

and his friends and all of those things

so I really struggle with this

that's a long uh

that that's a long preamble

I would love to hear you know

how do you how do you think about this and and uh

and educate me a little bit on yeah

so I you know

I have as I've been talking about pornography

and what's happening first

understand pornography is dangerous for teenagers

because we don't have fully frontal

fully formed frontal lobes at that point yeah

so our brains are developing

and so

what we're seeing in pornography is playing into that

but what I tell folks and parents is look

the reality is we've said for years

fence your pools so your babies don't drown in the pool

which is fine right

but babies unfortunately have still drowned in pools

even with the fence somebody leaves the fence open

it's not high enough

there are a million different scenarios

the same is true for pornography

so now we teach babies how to swim

so that baby can save itself

we need to do the same thing with pornography

for young people

most boys will have seen pornography at age 11

most girls by age 13 first blush of pornography

for most children is accidental

and 10% of kids will

almost instantly be addicted to pornography

so what does pornography addiction look like

it looks like I cannot

fully function through my activities of daily living

brushing my teeth washing my face

showering going to school

com com um

conversing with friends

because I am so tied up to wanting to see pornography

so what happens then

is pornography for the addicted child

you know it is a lot like a drug addiction

so I got that first hit and it felt this way

and now I'm chasing that first hit feeling again

and so I'm looking at harder and harder and harder

core pornography wow

so that addiction space can be really dangerous

for the non addicted child

though

there are still some major issues with pornography

viewing and pornography seeing

for one thing

most pornography contains some sort of abuse against

usually the female but if you're watching um

male on male pornography

you can also see abuse in those

and that's generally slapping

but we are seeing a larger

and larger breadth of pornography

that includes strangulation

and different

like my first blush with pornography when I was a kid

as I found my parents playboy under their bed

that's not what kids are being exposed to

that is fairly innocuous it's a magazine

as a girl I was pretty much disgusted

until I sort of blossomed later

um but what our kids are seeing is hardcore pornography

and their brains cannot discern

this isn't how mom and dad have sex

this isn't how quote unquote

consenting consensual sex is

and so all of the studies are showing us this

child viewing of pornography

is creating more and more child sexual assault

but it's also creating what we're sort of

calling sexual dysphoria

as a woman believing she needs to kind of

be objectified

and abused within that sexual environment

and a boy

believing he's got to take full control and be rough

because that's what they're seeing

so that is a long answer to your short question

but it is such a complicated space

no child is ready for this

probably most parents aren't ready for this

but you gotta figure out how to have

a conversation with your kids

that pornography is not real

that is not how people have consenting

adult sexual relationships and

and have that conversation with them

because nobody else is and if you're not having it

Pornhub is having it for you

which is a incredibly scary thought right

the worst possible way to have that conversation

yeah right

I I

you know I

I can imagine

I suspect that most parents reflex is the same as mine

which is

they're likely to have the conversation when they

accidentally encounter their son

let's say

looking at porn

and the immediate reaction is going to be instinctual

and it's going to be to go towards shame

and to shame them out of the behavior

and my guess is that that is not a productive way

to handle the conversation

it's not and I understand that reaction completely

right because it's like

where did my baby go all of a sudden

especially with boys

he's looking at a naked woman on his computer or

or looking at a sex act on his computer

and sort of that is

you know and I

I I don't know this

I don't have a data point on this

but I would guess

it's usually moms that figure it out first

or interesting because we're

my kids laugh at me I'm the knock and enter right

I'm not knocking waiting for a mom come in

I think I'd like to think most moms are a

little bit wired like me where it's like I'm knocking

but I'm already coming in

and so yeah

you're so so take a breath

um it's best to have conversation

with kids in 4th and 5th grade

not wow a full detailed

like let's get into the nuts and bolts

but hey you may soon

if you haven't already be exposed to pornography

which is naked people having intercourse or

doing whatever they're doing

um

have you seen that and if when you do

can we just talk about it

um and they're gonna be horrified

you're gonna be horrified

the whole thing is uncomfortable

but your job as a parent is just kind of okay

I've had the uncomfortable part

I've opened the door

I also like car windshield conversations

driving kids to sports whatever

like hey

what are you looking at on the internet these days

um I knew that my son was starting to develop that way

because my Amazon profile

all of a sudden

there was women in lingerie on my Amazon

oh wow

did I purchase my Amazon my lingerie through Amazon

but I was like oh

something's happening in my house right

and he was you know

probably 12 13 right

and I was like okay

and we had had some pre conversations

but then it was like let's have the big conversation

here's the you know

I'm not a psychologist

I'm not an expert in the space in

in the space in a in a in a medical way

I just have a lot of experience with my own kids

but then also in the work I do

and so the research really is look

open the door for a conversation

watch your kids you know your kids the best

if they start to recede from friendships

from normal activities from things like that

that's when you're gonna know there's a

something bigger going on

and it may or may not be pornography

but that's where you're gonna start to dig in

um but letting young is

particularly young men

know that viewing pornography is somewhat normal

but let's talk about what's real and not real

and you know

the uncomfortable conversation you can have is

I understand that you want to masturbate

that just that word is terrifying for everybody

but I would really like it

if you could try to do it

without any visual stimulation

and that is a really tough conversation

but you're

what you're doing is you're buffering your child

like I'm telling you it's okay

I'm telling you that this is normal

masturbation is normal we have sexual urges as we grow

these are all normal parts of development

and quite frankly

they're beautiful parts of who we are as human beings

I mean this is what allows us to

you know create new generations

found my

teenage kids

don't care about that part of the conversation

they just want the uncomfortable part to be over but

it's it's more about like

it's totally normal here are some things

and I would like for you not to do it

with visual stimulation and if you

if you're struggling with that

I wanna have another conversation right and and

and just leave it there and then monitor your kids

watch your kids what are they doing

you know I don't look at my kids browser history

I do have Google family

so I can see what apps they're downloading and

and those kinds of things

so I can talk to them about the dangers of discord um

or what video games they're playing

but if you create kind of an open communication

like we only really eat lunch

dinner together once a week

and so that's an opportunity to check in

but his little sister is there

so that's often not the right time to talk to a

16 year old but where are those connection points and

and what is comfortable for you to talk about

if you're growing up in a particularly

religious family and things like sexuality

masturbation

those are not topics that you're normally talking about

and and

and if you're a single mom

and you're not the right deliverer of that message

figure out who is if that's the church

and the youth program at the church

you need to have a conversation with that youth program

about like I hey

hey I need some help

I need my I need this conversation

to be happening

because the more we shame kids for this activity

the more they just won't tell us

the activity is not going to stop

they're just going to figure out how not to tell us

yeah I have this hypothesis that

that shame is almost never appropriate

when wielded as kind of a weapon

and I think we do it culturally

I think you know

like putting you know

excluding someone from society is

as a punishment is a thing that

that humans do and um

and I think that we reflexively do it a lot and

but I in most normal circumstances

I'm sure there are educations where it's appropriate

but I I can't imagine

you know certainly with a parent to their boy I

I don't think it's ever productive

yeah the and

and parents need to understand too

they are not like

especially as your kids are kind of getting to that age

where these topics are are really ripe

you're no longer an influencer in your child's life

like I know that you think you are

I also like to think that I am

and I do think I have influence

but I am not the primary influencer

so some of this for parents

is realizing that you are not the primary person

so that

shame is going to push people into just not telling you

shame works tremendously well from respected peers

especially in the male community

shame works well from respected peers

but it's delivered differently

it's delivered in a way that it's like

I care about you

I care about who you are as a human being

and I want this X behavior to stop

how can I help you with that

yeah that coming from a beloved football coach

an uncle a

someone who you have respect for as a kid

that generally is not your parent unfortunately

that that is incredibly powerful

but the shame is matched with

I've seen this behavior I don't like it

and I'm here and I love you

and so then it's matched with like okay

this person that I truly respect

I want to be like when I'm older

is telling me this behavior is not okay

then this behavior must not be okay

what happens when teenagers hear that from their their

um their parents is like oh

I need to conceal this behavior

yeah it's a different

it's a different mechanism right

and so knowing shame can be helpful

but the deliverer has to be the right person um

and that is often not us as parents yeah

yeah that's uh

it's really you know

one of one of the

through lines of this project for me

that has been so clear

is how important it is for boys and young men to have

excellent male role models

the more the better yeah

and this is just I mean

you mentioned single mothers

uh it's one of those things

a mother will never be able to have this conversation

with her son in a way that's as remotely

as impactful as an uncle or a coach or

or somebody like that

even a father can't do it with much yeah

um and it's just so important to seek out as many

really great male role models as you can and

and surround your boy with great men

yeah and

you know Scott Galloway

who is a statistician I think by trade

phenomenal guy

but he just wrote notes on being a man love

I like I read it for my work

but then I was like okay

when my son is maybe a year older

that's a gift and he's reading it

it's a phenomenal book

particularly if you're a mom struggling and I'm a

I'm a single mom but I have a co parent who

we figure it out through the divorce right

so I know my kids have male role models in their dad

and then other people but if you're a single mom

and there isn't a male role model in your son's life um

figuring out like big brothers

big Sisters is a great place

and for men out there

that maybe your kids are out of the house

that you can Big Brothers

Big Sisters really struggles to get male um

Big Brothers female Big Sisters is a lot that not a

you know

not that they don't need that volunteer as well

but they really do struggle if you're a man of color

100 Black Men there is great programs about um

gentlemen by choice which is an in school program for

for young inner city kids

there are some really great programs if you're a

a male out there who has time look

kids are scary working with kids

like I get nervous and I do it all the time

kids are tough but the thing is

is like just showing up yeah

so many kids are growing up without healthy

male role models

and girls need healthy male role models too

especially if they're coming out of a family

where violence and

and and the male happen to be the perpetrator

which is usually the dynamic that we see

strong healthy men

is going to help girls choose better partners

as they get older

but it's gonna help boys form who they're gonna be

and so that's why you know

programs like coaching boys into men

if you're a football coach out there

basketball coach

or you're coaching any kind of boys athletics team

coaching boys into men

is a phenomenal curriculum to use in your locker rooms

because what happens too often is

a well intentioned football coach walks by

some young men

having an inappropriate conversation about a girl

uh and they don't say anything

here's what happens for young men

what does not get corrected gets condoned

uh huh and so when we don't correct the behavior

the frontal lobe says

oh great

he heard what we were saying

didn't correct the behavior

so that behavior must be OK

and coaches particularly football basketball

baseball these sort of marquee sports

play such a critical role in

in a young man's development

that's often for young men in high school age

the most trusted relationship they have in their life

is with their coach so coaches

whether you want it or not

you hold a very important role

and what we know is most um

Fortune 500 company CEO Sweet members

95% played sports yeah

you want cultural dynamic

change starts in the locker room right

and and so these are like all great things

I mean what

you know ask yourself as an adult

what would I do if I walked by a group of people

and heard them talking about pornography

what you know

what's my role with the group

how do I engage with these kids

or how do I find these kids some resources

but kids are thirsty and

you know I find

Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts

don't really want to talk about these things

which for some kids

is really where they need the help and support

they're in a scouting on organized program

every organized program should have

some way for kids to get this sensitive information

I am not asking to have a conversation with kids

about whether or not they're having sex

before they're married

I'm asking for these youth programs to

meet kids where they are at

which is in a world where in an instant

they can have access to hardcore pornography

and often are by accident

how are we meeting the pop

the kids where they are right

um and unfortunately

we're so hamstrung in our society

to have these conversations

kids are the ones left without any guardrails

without any safety and nowhere to turn

and the result is an uncontrolled experiment

yeah I mean

child on child sexual assault did not do this

with the internet it did this

wow and there are more and more and more

I mean we're dealing with a horrific case here

of a private school

boys went to the Guapo Coast Islands and uh

four of the boys raped another boy

middle school this is a middle school group

oh my gosh now

of course

there's a whole bunch of legal things in there

it's not in the US territory

but two of the boys filmed it oh

brought that film video back

and showed it to boys at another private school

so now you've trafficked

youth pornography across international waters

my first question when I heard

when this case broke was

how much pornography is on these boys computers right

I mean these are kids

you know these are

it's a well respected private school here in town

one of the boys is the junior golfer of the year

that is accused of this like

how could this have been prevented

and where did these boys get the idea

that this activity was not only OK

but OK enough to share it

there is no shame in it like

it's OK and I'm gonna share it right um

and they're they are being tried as adults

I mean their entire lives are radically changed

because of this horrific act

not only to mention the poor child who was victimized

yeah and

and and

you know this

this could have been prevented right

that's what my sort of brain tells me is

where could mom and dad

where could we have gotten to this

way before this horrific incident

and often times you know

we think oh

it's just about saying you can't do these things

but it's more about

what do our kids understand is acceptable

from the world in which we don't have control of

but they have access to and how do we tell them

what they're seeing is not acceptable

like where does that conversation fit in

and I don't I don't have a clue

I don't have a good answer

I just know these conversations need to be happening

what are your

you know in

in terms of as as our boys start to mature into men and

you know they start to have

they're starting to have interactions with girls

and they're starting to get

be interested in girls and they're starting to

you know have relationships with girls

and as you've mentioned this access

to pornography affects their way of

how they think about girls and sex and

and all those things and just

you know the

the culture at large affects that

and we've you know

we just we're

we're on the heels of the Me Too movement now

and there's the it

it feels like

the interrelations between boys and girls

has gotten so complex that

in fact I mean

I think a lot of

a lot of young men and women are opting out

uh because it's hard

it's it's harder than it

than than it feels like it ought to be

what are your thoughts about how to foster a healthy

you know perspective on

you know male

female relationships in a growing adolescent

and young man

yeah so

you know boys are hardwired to

to to protect and provide

right as are men

like this is just the trajectory of our yeah

that's what masculinity is yeah

what we have to start to teach young boys

and young girls

but young boys I'll talk about specifically

so how do we how do we protect

provide and how do we partner

and that's the part that's been missing

how do we partner

we kind of had this sort of rapid me too movement right

alongside the George Floyd situation and

and all of a sudden

anybody that was a white young man was feeling very

like there was not a path for them to move forward

right um and

and so what have we seen

we've seen boys checking out

right at massive rates from college

from moving forward in their lives

from all of these things so the part of it is right

like okay

so what are we doing around as a society

what are we doing

around the large dropout rates of boys

because

if any other segment of society was dropping out

at this rate we would all be very alarmed

but for some reason we feel like oh

we don't have to be worried about this

we need to be worried about this yeah

we need to be worried about this

we also need to realize that the pendulum of of

of of male sort of passage

male ability to get into the workforce

male prevalence has been slowly moving into

into the zone of Equality

are we there yet we are not

but ostracizing men for just being male

is incredibly deflating and I hear all of the arguments

but that's what women have sat in forever

that's what black men have sat in forever

I don't I'm not disagreeing

it doesn't make it right you're right right

but what I'm but what I'm sharing with you is

we cannot get to a place where everybody

in society has a path filled of like

an ability to move forward

if we say oh

we're going to cut you out because historically

you've had more privilege than the rest of us

that's not gonna work that's not gonna work

we have to figure out how to work within relationships

where we're partnering and in a society

where there's opportunity for everybody

so that's the larger scope

but particularly for our young boys

we have to so there's an

there's a guy that writes for the Review Journal here

that drives me insane because he always writes like

feminism

has made it so that women don't need men anymore no

that's not true

what feminism has done

is provided women with more opportunity

to find a partner that we don't have to settle for

right I'm a single woman I make a good salary

I don't need somebody for a financial add on

so what does that now mean for men

is that

you need to come to the table with more than just

your job and your salary

we have to teach men how to elevate into that space

to be good partners

and and and that is new

I think that part we don't talk about right

it's like you're gonna go out

and so we're assuming as as well intentioned parents

our kids are gonna go out

they're gonna launch they're gonna go to college

they're gonna get a good job

they're gonna couple

and then we'll have grandkids and the whole cycle

you know repeats itself

we gotta help boys get there

and that's gonna look different

I think for every boy but

there does need to be real conversations about what's

your career path what does that look like

and and honestly it is okay if if you're you know

what is it gonna feel like to

to

what are you bringing to the table in a relationship

protect and provide I love it

every romance novel I've ever read is based on this

idea that you're protecting this female

but what does Protection look like in 2026

and what does providing look like

it looks a little different than it did in the 1960s

for sure but what does partnering look like

and that partnering piece

is what we're kind of missing out on right

and so like I have a boy crazy 13 year old daughter I

I have she's she's had one little boyfriend so far

and it's like hey yeah

what is this partnering space like

how are you giving him space to to

you know like you're both growing in this relationship

girls mature faster than boys

oh yeah girls are boy crazy

way before boys even know what the heck is happening

oh yeah so we just need to come to terms like

there are some realities there

and what does that look like

but how do we help boys

not get caught up in what they're seeing on TV

in social media to be authentic to themselves

but then caring and nurturing and you know

how do we teach young people to have a conversation

of consent

before they just maybe have a couple

too many beers at a party and

and couple in a way they're not excited about right

so these are all conversations

that are best had in the home

these are all conversations that are best had

you know with parents

but if you don't have that dynamic with your kids

who does and how how can you do this

the other trick I tell parents is

think about movies you watched when you were a kid

or maybe more recent movies that have come out

where there is a healthy sexual relationship yeah

watch that with your children

and then have a conversation about what was in there

that felt good what were you worried about okay

I want to tell you guys

no matter what you're seeing in social media

this was healthy

so yeah

yeah you know

it's not easy I

I like your framing about protecting

providing and partnering

because there's a way

in which a lot of these discussions

can sour

into an us versus them mentality

yeah and when it sours into an us versus them mentality

then partnering is impossible

yes and

and and by the way

in if you and I are having a discussion

either one of us can cause the

the the

the partnership to sour into us versus them by doing it

and so it's really it

it's really prevalent and it's and

and you can't make progress from that position

you can only make progress from a partnering

perspective and that goes

whether you're just dealing one on one with somebody

or it goes whether at a at a society level too

and I think that and

and it's you

you see that in the mentality of

about how you know

my culture the culture

wants to punish my son

for the fact that I grew up in a privileged situation

yeah and that's an us versus them mentality

they're like oh

well I was

you know I was disadvantaged

and so you know

and so

that means that your son needs to be disadvantaged

no no the

the the answer is to raise all the boats

not lower some of the birds and

and so I just I love the framing that you have of no

we need to address the world the way it actually is

not the way we wish it would be

and like let's like

focus on the opportunities to work together

at a desired common outcome

I uh

I just absolutely love that yeah

you know I

and I tell my I talk to my kids

I mean my kids are being raised

we've got a stable house you know

we love the community we live in

we've got cars that work my

I explain to my children

you are being raised in privilege'cause

stability is a privilege right

and it's not whether or not you don't have a choice

because being in this country is a privilege

I mean

it's yeah

you're it's yeah

there's a but what are you gonna do

but what are you gonna do with that privilege right

that's not like

you can't decide whether or not you have privilege

so to off to

to to

to treat somebody as if they're less than

because they grew up

in a household where I have worked very

very hard to provide that for them

that's unfair yeah

the question is how do you help elevate right

and recognizing that other kids

growing up in different situations

have a different way of coming at things and

and understanding that that's what we have to create

it's it's a world of understanding

but we can't do that if we're saying oh

I'm sorry you're not eligible for this job

because you're a white man between 18 and 25

and you grew up in a in this circumstance

we can't do that

Harvard Business Review had a phenomenal article

quite around the the time of the George Floyd um

situation it said

we have to stop judging people by all of these sort of

racial metrics that don't really make sense

they're dehumanized context

that was created for a lot of reasons

that probably are are

are not important

but if you want diversity of thought in your boardroom

in your leadership

you need to have diversity of experience right

and growing up in different ways

is also diversity of experience

and we we kind of seem to want to forget

that and judge everybody by what we see coming at us

and I don't think that's gonna get us very far

and it's gonna get a lot of people feeling oppressed

and irritated and checking out

which is what we're seeing with the incel movements

what we're seeing with the red pill

we're seeing all these horrible things that

young men are starting to

kind of try to engage in well yeah

because they're not finding community

in this other place that community has driven them away

it's told them that there isn't a place for them

and so they find community in this other place instead

and you know that's

that's not their fault

they want community just like we do

just like everybody does

and the fact that we're driving them over to that

that's our fault

yeah yeah

and so we have to we have to care about everybody right

we have we have to figure that out

and treat people as individuals

and you know

I as much as I am not a huge Trump supporter

some of the things around the diversity

equity and inclusion I understand

because I see the negative side of having a son

who happens to be white who feels like there's no path

like where do I

where do I go I'm less than because of my

you know who I am and how I'm growing up

and the color of my skin and I don't think that's

I don't think anybody should feel that

and I recognize that as a woman

and people that are in marginalized populations

have felt that for a long time

but your to your point

you don't win by then oppressing everybody

like oppressing then the other group

you turned it into an us versus them

you had an opportunity to make it a collaboration thing

and say you know what

no

people shouldn't be judged by the color of their skin

so we're not gonna do it instead

you said

people shouldn't be judged for the color of their skin

unless they're one of these colors

and or you know

and you know you lost it at that point

you turned it

you turned it into an us versus them in the other way

and guess what right

what what's gonna happen

what's it what's gonna happen is what we got

it's and it's not good it's not healthy

it's not good and it's not yielding good outcomes for

the people that you claim to

claim to to worry about

yeah and it doesn't mean you don't examine

what are the pathways to leadership

and your prospective organizations or whatever

what are your pathways

and make sure that your pathways

are peppered with opportunity to expand that net

so that more folks with different experiences come in

but it doesn't mean that you ostracize

based on a dynamic and that's what

I think we've got a little bit too much going on of

yeah I wholeheartedly agree

and I think you know

maybe

hopefully the pendulum will swing back the other way

and and

and we'll get to a place that is a lot more healthy and

and you know

I I

that's usually the way it goes

I think I think people

the vast majority of people

the vast majority of the time are really

really really good

I I think so too

I think we just yeah

we've gotten a little bit out of whack

and so it's like okay

let's course correct

because the United States is a phenomenal place

it it has more

I've lived all over the world

we have so much opportunity here

it's incredible

but let's not oppress one group to elevate another

right let's figure out how we do this collectively

and we will just be stronger yeah yeah

well Liz

thank you so much for taking the time

this has been an absolute delightful conversation

I really appreciate you educating me on this

and where can people learn more about you

and about Safe Nest and engage with you

yeah so safeness.org is our website

we've got all of our services are on there

we of course

will chat with anybody we serve mostly at Clark County

Nevada but um

it's been such an honor to chat with you

and just talk about this thing from a different lens

this has been great thank you so much Liz

thanks again for being part of Raising

Men and for those of you listening

be sure to like

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if you uh

especially if you enjoyed this conversation

or reach out you know what we

the links to all of these things including

including how to get a hold of Liz

those are all in the show notes

and remember that you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino