Hello and welcome back to Raising Men.

I'm here once again with Dr.

Carla Katuria.

And one of the things that we didn't get a chance to talk about on Monday was her own
personal journey and and with with with varsity athletics.

And you know, some of the insights that that has allowed that that that at that has given
her, both in terms of

uh elite athletics and uh and in terms of how we should be coaching ourselves or our kids
should be coaching them s ourselves and how we can cultivate uh that in our barriers.

Doctor Carla, welcome back to raising men.

Thanks for having me back.

I love it.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, so tell me about you know, you've got a story.

Uh you were uh obviously a a a a a very good basketball player and you've got a story
about that uh when you were younger.

Tell us tell us about that and and what sort of realizations you you came to as a result
of

Yeah, I think so I played basketball since I was, you know, like an elementary kid and
then when I y played on the middle school team, you know, we did really well.

I was on varsity, but you know, there was some other girls that kind of were were running
the team along with me.

It was a it was kind of a more safe fit.

Um then I got to high school and I really as freshman year,

Already had put a lot of pressure on myself, was continuing to put more pressure on
myself, had a coach that was a little different than my middle school coach, so super high

pressured.

And my dad was always my coach since I was born.

Uh, so he putting a lot of pressure on me.

And I think I basically cracked.

There was a girl that came on the team beginning a sophomore year that was younger than
me, better than me, kind of same position.

And instead of having that mindset of

What can I learn from her?

She's my teammate.

w so what if she starts and I don't?

Or what if maybe we we start together?

I let that

having her on the team kind of get to me and made maybe made it more of like a competition
in my head.

And then the pre the pressure of my coach wanting practices on New Year's Day and my mom
saying, Well, we have family commitments or, you know, my dad putting all the pressure on

and it came down to me

not having the tools to handle the pressure, but also uh not knowing how to reframe my
thoughts and my mindset around it.

And it I just I collapsed and I quit.

And I don't s n I know I'm not a quitter, but it got to be so much um that I couldn't
handle it.

And sad story, 'cause I was good at basketball and could have gotten a lot

out of the next couple of years as far as fun and all the things are con are concerned and
camaraderie.

Uh yet I kind of feel as if I s you know just did not handle it, really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

it's it's kind of a missed opportunity.

It's one of those missed opportunities at a time when that sort of thing has a lot of
leverage, both in the positive and negative direction.

And it seems like I mean, I I I think you turned out okay.

And so it's not like it ruined your life.

I mean, that's kind of another aspect of that of just maintaining perspective.

It it was probably one of those things that at the time felt like the the most important
thing in the world.

Yeah.

and you know, I mean, life is long and uh and there's there's a lot more opportunities and
and that door closes and opens up a bunch more.

And what which kind of brings us to you know, what is you know, how do you take that to
your to your your kids?

I mean, in in in terms of of how they how you give them the resilience.

um or the the internal skills or the self coaching uh skills in order to you know manage
that kind of pressure without taking it on.

Yeah, 'cause I and I think it to back up for just a second, like I I know I grew up in a
different time than they grew up in.

So it's like at that time I did, you know, AAU basketball, but it was like on the weekend
or you know, I feel like kids' schedules today are so much more packed.

You know, parents are doing all the things, which is great on one hand, um, but that was
almost like a rude awakening for me where kids are used to the schedule I had in high

school at nine years old today, right?

So

I think there's something to be said about uh kids are putting pressure on themselves a
lot sooner and ha even though I turned out all right, uh I I'm realizing this in my

forties where, you know, had I had the right skills because I I feel most kids are doing
sports

to create some sort of challenge in their lives, to learn the skills through sports, um,
versus trying to be a professional when they grow up.

Maybe they get scholarships and things like that.

uh But I think with many of the families that come to me today, uh parents are verbalizing
to me that they're not putting pressure on their kids to perform at their sports, yet

they're enrolling them every day after school and and driving them everywhere.

So, you know, you might not

they're not putting pressure on them, but there is still a ton of pressure on them that is
created as a byproduct of the of how they interact with their kids.

A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

And I think um with kids what what I start with them doing is to to think of what they
were thinking in that moment.

when they threw their racket on the tennis court, when they wanted to be taken off the
golf course, when they struck out and they couldn't come back the rest of the game, you

know, they kept striking out and they kept dropping the ball because of that first
initials say negative um

performance that they had, right?

And so I think the first step is always having them um kind of what is my inner critic
saying or what am what up what thoughts am I having?

'Cause they they're like, Well, I don't know what I was thinking.

I just got mad.

Well

So I think the first step is kind of helping them to train them to see like what are you
thinking about in that moment?

Because your thoughts create your reality.

So had you been thinking a different thought, you might have had a different outcome,
right?

So I think the first step is getting them to coach themselves through it to find out what
is offering that them that resistance.

Um and then it's looking at, okay, if you if you think of

Here's where I wanna be.

This is I wanna be in the powerful state.

I wanna be, you know, hitting the ball hard or th throwing it or whatever kind of you
know, whatever sport I'm in, I wanna be doing really well, scoring points, scoring goals.

And then there's the other side of me where I'm just I spiral out of control.

So we have to find that middle ground.

And one, how do you stay in a powerful state or neutral?

Because a lot of times when you're playing a sport, you're

doing really well and then as soon as like the tide turns, you lose the ball, you make a
mistake, that's when we spiral.

So before we spiral, you have to ha have that kind of mentality and we think through of
like, okay, how can I just be at neutral?

If I if I made a mistake

And that comes with being non-judgmental, which is very difficult.

So instead of if I hit the ball in the rough or I you know hit it into the net or whatever
I did, I struck out or I missed the ball, right away we judge ourselves and say, that was

a terrible shot or a terrible hit or terrible whatever, right?

Yeah, I or I'm a terrible player.

Yeah, or I I may I suck at this game or yeah that yeah, I do that.

and so that negative self talk is is the thing that then makes you feel bad about yourself
as well as brings shame and other emotions onto you and then you're in front of people and

you know it it spirals.

So the the thought is uh

Some you know, at some point you can get to the point where you can replace the negative
thought with the p positive thought.

But until you get to that point where you truly believe in yourself regardless if you hit
it hit it well or not, to get it to neutral, you have to just say, Wow, that was a shot.

Or, oh, that was a swing.

I know it sound it sounds kind of And not and not not e Right, and not even saying and
don't even say like good shot when it's a good shot.

Just just

Yeah.

Just observe the shot.

Yeah.

Abs correct.

Because then it's very non-judgmental and you are moving yourself away from that negative
self-talk.

You know, after you win the set or or hit the ball or whatever happens, you wanna like
give yourself a pat on the back?

Heck yeah, you know, I did a great job that was awesome.

I did a great job.

But it it really comes down to focusing on what you're improving and how you're doing and
staying present in that moment versus the outcome.

Because you could

Swing that bat the same way every single time and you really don't know what the outcome's
gonna be.

You could pop up, you can strike out, you can hit a home run.

So can you you you have some semblance of control over that, but not complete control.

Like we don't know who's gonna win the game or the match, but in order to do so, it's it's
thinking you know, what am I thinking?

How can I shift that to neutral and and be non-judgmental?

Those are like the first like

s things you can do.

Then it's working on like the strategies of, you know, positive self-talk and
visualization and deep breathing and, you know, focus and staying present.

But I think you even have to back up further than all of those strategies.

Yeah, you know, I I um I I took up golf kind of recently and my observation about golf,
which I mean I've sucked at golf my whole life.

Like I I mean I I I was so bad.

Um I mean I had never had lessons, I'd never been formally taught, I was borrowing clubs
from people, all of that stuff, and I I just was terrible at it and I I was so terrible

that it was n it couldn't be enjoyable to me.

And so I quit for a really long time and then just decided about a year ago to take it
back, but 10 months ago to take it back up.

And I now I really, really enjoy it.

And I think one of the keys to me, the difference between those two things, is exactly
that kind of just observational detachment.

There is no value based on the result of whatever happens, there is only what happens.

And and for me, it just it kind of helps to so one one of the things that I that just kind
of learned recently about about how to do that is I'll go to the driving range a couple

weeks or like 30 minutes before I'm gonna go play, and I just warm up with a couple of
different clubs and I get a real sense of what the shot pattern is gonna look like.

And like with no judgment, like, okay, well, you know, I'm hitting today, I'm hitting you
know, about 10 degrees right of target and about 10 yards short of target with this club.

You know, and and with these kind of error bars, this I get a sense of what the oval looks
like in my head.

And then that's just a description of this is what this is what my shots are looking like
today.

And then when I go out on the on the actual course, I

I have that in my head.

okay.

Well, my six iron is doing this.

And so in order to make sure that the six iron shot that I'm doing today has the maximal
chance of being in play.

So not being a frustrating, you know, crazy off into the woods or getting in the water or
in a in a bunker or something like that, then I oughta aim in this direction and do over

there and just kind of do this.

And then and then I get to be completely detached about what actually happens because,
well, you know, I mean, this is these are what my

These are what my capabilities are, what my golf capabilities are today.

And, you know, all I can do is make the best possible decisions based on that.

And once I was able to cultivate that detachment and just completely be totally
non-judgmental about what my outcomes were, then it just became, it became like a chess

match.

And I'm just trying to get the best possible performance out of my limited physical
abilities today.

Right.

Right.

And I think what you're saying is basically you have more confidence in your golf game
because you're kind of trusting yourself that I've gone to the driving range as much as I

could this week or I've putted in my backyard a little bit and I'm gonna trust that my
body can kind of remember what to do.

And if it doesn't, it doesn't, but if it does, it does.

And I'm uh I think you aren't playing for a specific goal per se like to win a
championship like a kid might be playing for, right?

Right.

So so we can s as as older athletes, let's say, since there's no like you know, end goal
there.

Right, right.

Though kids competing in a sport, the the thought process is the same.

And it is not

How our society thinks, but the championship win or the the dub just the W period is like
the icing on the cake.

It really is: did I come out here better than I did last time?

Did I hit it this shot better than last time?

Did I stay calm when I normally would have not stayed calm?

Those are the real wins.

It's just shifting, you know, it it's it's having your focus be on that.

And then and team sports as well.

It's it's

You know, maybe I'm looking to give more assists this time in basketball than I am trying
to score all the things and guess what?

When you start helping others in your team, you're gonna end up scoring more anyways.

Yeah.

It's one of those things that can only be approached obliquely.

Like if you concentrate, if you get all in your head about succeeding and winning and
getting the W or getting the basket or getting the goal as opposed to focusing on the

process, um the you'll actually do worse.

You you'll well you in terms of you'll you'll you're less likely to achieve the goal that
you think you want to get.

And even if you win, you're gonna get there in a way that is stress and anxiety ridden
versus I'm having fun and enjoying my life way.

Yeah.

And I th

and so over here you have, oh, I can enjoy myself, I can be more likely to succeed, and it
could be a positive experience for my for a life experience for me.

Versus over here, I can be miserable, I could be less likely to succeed, and it could be a
negative experience for me.

Like, which one am I choosing over and over again?

And we're so focused on the W, we're so focused on lotting um that that.

everybody thinks that they should be focused on that.

And i it it takes a real it it takes a really

intellectually mature person uh to really understand that and then and then we're asking
our nine year olds to do that.

It's gr it's it's kind of crazy.

Well, it's kind of like if you think about it, like I mean it's like trying versus
letting.

You know, like when when you you have kids and when they started walking, did you tell
them what to do?

No, you kinda just like watch them from afar, hope they didn't smack their f you know,
face on anything.

But you kinda just correct.

on it.

Yeah.

are we doing that as they're nine years old and eighteen years old or are we just we're
micromanaging and then getting them stress and are you winning and and it's it's and then

they're thinking that way and it's like well maybe we just like let it happen.

But it's very difficult to take that like almost take a step back.

as as the as the kid and as the parent, right?

And we just are in this like push, hustle, go, grind, all this.

Well, we can still work hard yet enjoy it and feel it and like be present there.

I mean, half of it is just enjoying the feel of the racket in your hand or the birds
singing while you're playing the golf game.

I mean, i it that's life.

Yeah.

if we're always focused on, you know, the end goal or what are are what are we enjoying?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's such it's it's a really, really interesting thing, uh that that kind of oblique
thing.

Yeah, you know enjoy the activity because the activity is is you better love it.

Yeah, you know, I had another guest um named Jonathan V last who who said there's only
there's only two reasons to play sports.

for enjoyment or for money.

I got news for you.

You're unlikely to you're not playing for money right now.

So you better be enjoying the heck out of it.

And by the way, eventually, yeah, that if you if you aspire to play for money, that's the
best way to do it is to enjoy the heck out of

uh right when you get in that fear mode or that control mode versus the like flow and
improvement, it's a different and and it doesn't mean you don't care.

It doesn't mean you don't go out there and and play your heart out or practice every day.

Uh you're just practicing from a different perspective and you're trusting yourself.

You're not judging yourself.

You're being kind to yourself but also putting in the work.

You know, so and you have that desired outcome in your head.

Of course, I want that's how I wanna swing, that's how I wanna hit.

Yet you're allowing your kind of subconscious to take you there versus f forcing it to fit
in this box of whatever you're putting it to.

Yeah.

Well that's great insight.

Doctor Carla, thank you so much for joining us again on Raising Men.

It's such a pleasure to see you.

And and remember for you listening, you are a great parent.