I mean

how many times have you driven the same route like the

to work I

I I drive the same route to work almost every day

do you know how many times I've missed that last turn

because I was so far into my own head

yes that I didn't even I

and all of a sudden I'm like

oh my gosh I just missed my turn

like that's what that

now consider that when it comes to parenting

yeah how many times do we get so far as parents

into our daily lives what we're doing

we're on autopilot as parents

that we miss that last term

welcome back today on the Raising Men podcast

we're joined by Ryan Riley

now Ryan is an entrepreneur

a featured Tedx speaker

a former executive at Cal Cellcore Biosciences

and the author of books for boys

a character and leadership series

designed specifically for middle grade boys

in his powerful talk

when Boys drift before they Collapse

Ryan breaks down the early

subtle signs of emotional withdrawal in young boys

and he introduces the concept of parenting as an anchor

to prevent crisis before it happens

Ryan welcome to raising men

hey thank you so much

really appreciate the opportunity to be here

and just excited to share this passion project of mine

that uh

that I've really kind of leaned into lately

and just to give a voice to

to

to the challenges that we have as dads

I I

I don't think

I don't think we talk enough about the problems we have

as parents and as dads

because I think so many times we want to like

well just like I said in the Ted talk

I mean it gives us an opportunity to

to just wait and hopefully things will work out and

and that's the really not the right course of action

we need to be more vocal

about the problems we're having

the challenges we're

we're struggling'cause we're not alone

and that's the thing that I noticed

as I started sharing this

we're not alone in in

in anything that we're doing

like everybody's going through something yeah

and if we could lean on each other as dads

as parents um

especially as we're raising men in today's culture

it it provides us an opportunity to be validated

to have encouragement and hope

so that

that was the whole point of me getting out and sharing

sharing that experience yeah

let me ask you um

let me push on that a little bit

I'm interested in your feedback

do you think that

that is a unique kind of problem for dads or

or do you think that mothers have this

have that issue as well no

I think it's unique to dads um

I think women do a really good job at creating cold

community and opening up to each other

I wholeheartedly agree you know what I mean

and and

and and here's a perfect example as

as guys we're terrible at planning

or executing

opportunities for us to get together and go do stuff um

like my buddies and I

we sit there and talk all the time hey

we should go down to a game hey

we should do this hey

let's go to a concert

and probably over the course of

20 years that we've done that

maybe three times right

and and

and it might have even been organized by your wives

I don't completely and

and the funny thing about it is the women

they women get together on a regular basis weekly

they've got book clubs they've got

they go to lunch they have opportunities and

and so no

I I think

I think men in general

need connection more than we realize

yeah

and the ability to open up and share those experiences

and to to

to lean on each other isn't a sign of weakness

it it's a

it's an opportunity to to be validated

it's an opportunity to understand you're not alone

it's an opportunity to be able to

to step up and and just feel like

life's life is hard

yeah right

life is I

it goes further than what you're talking about

it's actually there's actually kind of a pathological

I think that

there's kind of a pathological component to our culture

that that

that pathologizes men seeking connection

like if you have to seek connection

then you're then you're somehow failing or you're

think about the site think about the

the narrative that has played into that

um early on in growing up

men never ask for directions

yeah yeah

that's a that's sort of a

what you would call a meme now right

and it and it's in that situation where that became

that kind of created a standard of oh

we've got to do this on our own

because we don't ask for directions

and all of those all of those cues that we grew up with

put us in a situation where

like I

I we've painted ourselves in a corner

I believe

yeah I think that's actually

I mean that dovetails really nicely with

with really the subject of this discussion

which is that I think that are boys

when they become of the kind of age

that you're talking about

these middle grade ages 7th

8th 9th grade

when they are then being thrown into the deep end

the independence deep end

and you know

they have they have all of these lone wolf mythologies

that they're that have conditioned them

you and I as their fathers are

are not you know

it's not like we have a healthy relationship with

connection with other men

they might not have a healthy relationship with

connection of other men

and then they're thrown in the deep end expecting and

and supposed to be independent

and that I think

helps contribute to the drift that you talk about a lot

well and I want to

I want to challenge that a little bit

because I think that has been a cultural shift

that has occurred over

80 years yeah

I would I would agree with that

that you're like you're 18

you need to be independent

why

right like if you

so I my

my family and we actually lived in India for

for several months about 9 months OK

um in

in total and the multi

generational family that is established in cultures

like India like Latin America

um Italy in

in all other areas of the

of the world creates an opportunity for that

that that launching of youth to adulthood to happen

so much easier than what it does in the United States

culture because 18

you're out of the house you need to depend it man

that's the dumbest freaking thing I've ever heard

and it's it

it sets it sets these boys up for failure

it sets them up for debt it sets them up for loss

it sets them up for just challenges after challenges

after challenges when everybody knows they're not even

they're not even their mind

their frontal lobes

not even fully developed until they're 24

25 yeah

for another 10 years like why

why not lean into the fact that

and create an environment

or an atmosphere

where boys can be supported into adulthood

and set them up for success rather than failure

the other extreme of that is that

he's gonna be living in your basement

vaping and watching porn until he

you know when

when he's 30 and I think that's this kind of

that's the boogeyman that's waiting in there

in the back of our minds where's the

and so there's a tension there where

where where do you

how do you navigate that tension

well I

I I think the key there is setting them up for success

right and it's

it's I

I I wouldn't say living in your basement

vaping and watching porn is setting your

your your

your right success yeah

that's an excellent point

that's an excellent point right

but being able to create an environment

where they know and understand expectations

from the beginning

you create a culture in your home where

here's a perfect example so I have and

and just to kind of bring this to the table

I have I have five kids

four of my four

my first four are boys that are ages 20 to twenty 7 wow

okay um

three of three of my my my

my first second and third boy are all married

um

which is unheard of in today's culture

yeah it's

it's unusual certainly

like happily married

to the extent that

I became a grandfather for the first time this year

my first son and my second son both had

they had a little girl and a little boy and

and we that and again

unheard of and I didn't realize I

I I guess I kind of knew this

but as I've started talking more

and expressing some of these ideas with others

and friends and different communities um

people are surprised by that and

and and then on the other hand

I have a 12 year old little girl and

and I'll I'll tell you she

when she showed up

you know my wife and I we weren't planning it

it she was a complete surprise

in fact the odds because of procedures and

and and things going on

the odds of her showing up in our family

I did the math it was like

point zero zero one eight %

chance that she would even be conceived wow

that's amazing and she rocked our world man

like this little girl came into our life and

and this is gonna sound really

really bad because because it was an it was an uh

a late aged pregnancy um

it was my wife's first um

C section and postpartum after C section is at that age

um if it was your first one

like the stats go way up on it

so she was incredibly hard as a little girl and so we

we joke a lot that like it took us a while to

to even like her as a child coming into our family

we love her to death I have like

she is one of the most amazing little girls possible

but it's interesting because as I talk about boys

and I talk about my my boys um

a lot of people ask me well

why don't you write about you

you mention the books for boys well

they're like what about girls

and I'm like dude

I haven't figured out girls yet

I've got four boys that I went through the ringer on

yeah um

and I'm just now trying to figure out

what it preteen little girl even wants

which is a totally different side of this

so the fact that the fact that I've had

started sharing these conversations with people

and I talked to them that I got four boys

three of them are married

one of them just came back um

from serving a two year uh

mission for our church and is getting ready to school

and then the beauty of this is

I was sitting there and my

my son Davis um

he's my third he's back

he's married

he's going through school here at Boise State

and he looks at me he comes in one day and he goes dad

I feel like

I'm missing out on the opportunity to work with you

and to learn from you

and I'm like he's like

is there anything we can do together

and I'm like yeah absolutely

let's go to work right

and so it's the opportunity to create an environment

where you can set your kids up for success

doesn't begin when they're 18

it starts so far back

when you're creating the environment at home

which is which is

one of the things I talked about in my Ted talk is

you know I told my kids all the time like look

if you need to use me as an excuse

to get out of a situation

call me right

just call me pick up the phone

call me no questions asked

just call that was so ingrained to my son when it

when he finally needed it

he called right you

you can't begin setting people

your kids up for success right

when they're ready to go out of the house

it has to begin early

and that's where that concept of drift is so important

because if you're not aware of the idea of drift

if you're not aware that your kids are drifting

somewhere that you're not expecting them to go um

you've already lost control and and I define drift as

um

when when change outpaces our awareness

so kind of think through that like okay

when there is change going on in your kid's life

that you're not aware of yeah

that's drift um now here's the

here's the crazy thing drift

and I want people to know and understand

drift in my mind is not is

is neutral drift drift can be

there can be positive drift

there can be negative drift drift is

if drift is a constant variable in

in your life and change always happens

um you can't say that it's negative

until you evaluate it and identify where's

where is it going and so and

and the reason why I say that is

because I don't want people to have to be in a constant

state of fear

that their children are drifting off course

like drift does have a direction and

and the only idea is

if you can navigate that drift in a way

that supports them to success

then that's a positive drift

if you're not doing anything intentionally

about managing that change

and that drift outpaces your awareness

that's when the dangers lie

and that's when damage can happen

and that's when you

your ability to choose your response decreases

because you're put yourself

in a situation where you don't have any other choice

but to respond

yeah it's almost like

like it's like driving a car exact and you

you wanna keep it in the lanes right

and you wanna get to a destination that you've

you've decided on

so that presupposes both of those things

so you're in the lane and you're driving towards Boise

and and you've got 30 miles to go

and you're on the highway

if and you know

you have a light touch on the steering wheel

and to the extent that you're making minor

minor corrections on the steering wheel

things are pretty smooth yeah

but if you let go of the steering wheel

and you start texting on your phone

and the car begins to drift off

and it drifts onto the next lane

and someone honks the horn

because you're about to hit them

you're gonna freak out

you're gonna grab the steering wheel and you're

you might overcorrect to the other direction

you might I mean

all sorts of crazy things would happen in fact

I I

I was driving on a on a highway in Florida one time

and I saw a car

um the car in front of me

started drifting off to the right

and he got into the middle of the net

or he got halfway between my

our lane and the lane to his right

um before he realized

and the car immediately swerved

maybe about 40 degrees to the left

almost hit the center median or no

I'm sorry it did hit the center median

it was a pickup truck it bounced up into the air

landed down on the ground and a cooler flew out of the

flew out of the truck

and it was pointed 45 degrees off to the right

he went into a ditch

flipped the car and it went into the woods

and that's the that's the story that came to mind to me

when you started talking about drift and

you know the realization with your own boy um

I I

I thought of that car and

you know if you're

if you're able to do and in fact

actually I might even extend the metaphor even further

when they're young the car is moving very slowly and

you know that means that you need more corrections

and they're actually bigger

and as

but the whole point is to get the car moving faster

and faster and faster

and faster and faster and

and that makes it more stable and the

the the corrections needed are smaller and all of that

but the consequences for getting too far out of whack

are much much worse right

and and if you think about this as parents

when when you're driving a car

think about how you you

there are actions that you do on a regular basis

to make those corrections

and those you

when you're driving from point a to point B

there might be 100 different

minor corrections that you make along the way and and

and the interesting thing about that is

awareness is the key because think about

think about when you were just starting out driving

right

the only thing you were aware of when you began driving

yeah was the gas pedal

the brake the steering wheel and maybe the road right

you were so focused on what this car was doing um

and the interesting thing about that is

as you gained experience on the

driving behind the wheel

your awareness begins to open up and

and your understanding of what's happening around you

begins to solidify

into a picture that you can begin to navigate

almost unintentionally

yeah yeah

the the

the the mechanics of actually driving the car

become automated right

and then so then

now instead of focusing on exactly

how hard you're pressing the gas pedal

you can now focus on you know

something higher level well

and then and then the problem is

is you become comfortable in that environment

where your awareness

of what's really happening around you

um is off somewhere else

I mean how many times have you driven the same route

like to work

I I drive the same route to work almost every day

do you know how many times I've missed that last turn

because I was so far into my own head

yes that I didn't even I

and all of a sudden I'm like

oh my gosh

I just missed my turn like

that's what that now

consider that when it comes to parenting

yeah how many times do we get so far as parents

into our daily lives what we're doing

we're on autopilot as parents

that we miss that last term

the one that's really the most important

that will bring it home

so how do you cultivate that awareness

is it really I mean I

I think is it just a matter of

you know paying more attention and force of will

or

are there systematic ways to cultivate that awareness

you know I

everybody's everybody's different

I think the biggest thing that I've Learned and

and it's interesting now because I'm looking

I'm having conversations with my boys when they're

they're 20 right

and they're in their they're in their early 20s

and they talk about moments

that I didn't even realize

had the impact in their lives right

both positive and negative

yeah yeah

yeah and I think the biggest part of it is

just being present being and

and I talk about being an anchor

if you think about it an anchor is and

and I kind of describe this in

in in the Ted talk

an anchor sits at the bottom of the freaking river

or the lake or

and in the dirt in the grind

and it is but it's a constant

it's there right

that's that's a presence that is always on

and I think that I think with with

with boys especially

like with kids but especially with the boys

they need to know that you're an anchor

they need to know that you're there for them

when they need them and

and there's a big difference between

and look here's the deal

I'm I'm all about motivation and drive and and

and creating challenging opportunities

and challenging them to to do better

and to be the best that they could possibly be

um

but at the same time

just being there and allowing them to

to experience that anchor in their life

um knowing you're there

being a presence being actively engaged

um

starts to create that that

that habit of an understanding of an anchor

I mean I used to I

I used to read and I did this just because I enjoyed it

when my kids were my boys were growing up

we would sit and

we'd read Doctor Seuss books before they went to bed

um and I would just read and we just

we went through oh

the places you'll go probably 1,000 times

like Green Eggs and Ham and and

and I didn't even realize the impact that

that had on their lives until they

I started hearing them talk about those experiences

and what they did and and

and enjoying that moment for them in

to the point now where I sit and I watch my oldest um

reading those same books to his daughter

you know yeah

yeah I

I I know exactly what you mean

and I I've

I'm you know I

I didn't become a parent

you and I are probably of a similar age

and I but I

my parenting journey started much

much later than yours did and uh

and so I was really struck when my boy was young about

like the things I started remembering

and the things that were impactful to me

when I was a child

and I started being able to see things through his eyes

and being able to see that like

I wouldn't necessarily be able to predict

what was gonna have an impact with him

but I could recognize that something did have an impact

right well

and we talked about you know

your dad and and

and I think that growing up in an environment

I had an incredible example of a father um

and I think that

that's one of the things that has helped

I think yeah

it it

it's it's difficult

when you don't have an example of what a good father is

to find your way to be a good father

um because I think there's

a lot of guys out there that are struggling

in this space

because they don't know what a good father

should look like and that

and that's and that's one of the reasons

why I also wanted to do my TikTok

is to to let people know that look

people I

I truly believe that if you were to look at that time

when we were going through this

on the outside in

if you were to just look at us on the surface

you would have thought everything's perfect for

I had a great job we had a great family

we had a great car we had like house

we everything looked like we were good

but yet underlying

there was this struggle that we were going through

my wife and I together and

and to the point where

I remember specifically where the

the detective came to talk to us at our house

and I was like yeah

sure come on in

and and

and and I didn't even realize that

that interview with that detective

at that point

was probably one of the most damaging things

in the future to my son and

and what was going on with him wow

because I was trying to be like a good citizen hey

we need to talk through this

this is what we do we talk to the cops

this is what we do we don't like let's open up

and yeah knowing now

you know knowing what I know now

I would have handled that so much differently

right because you

you didn't recognize what system you were in

you thought you were in the old system

and now you're in this other system

yeah and you're the wheels of justice grinding system

well and even to the point where it's like

I didn't want to believe it

I didn't want to believe it

I didn't I didn't want to believe that that was my son

yeah and I didn't want to believe that

that the the challenges that he was facing were

were real in that sense and so

and I was like oh

it's just a phase oh

this is they've got it all wrong

this this isn't what happened and and

and that was where and if you think about

the definition I gave you about drift

is change outpaced my awareness

yeah and

and the biggest the biggest

I guess the biggest challenge is

the only way you can be aware of change

and to be able to make those corrections those

those those intuitive

just automatic corrections as a parent is to be present

and and

and to be a part of their life and to create an

an a

a culture within your home

where conversation can happen

how do you do that without becoming kind of

hyper vigilant you know what I mean

yeah well

and and here

let me I'll

I'll take it a different way

I've seen

I've seen a lot of parents take the well

I'm gonna I'm gonna

I'm gonna become their friend and and you know

as a teenager they're trying to be friends yeah

and I think that's I think that's the

the the other end of the spectrum

that is so far off of what we need to be as parents

and and so I

you kind of look at it

parenting to me plays three rules um

in the beginning you're

you're dad right

when those

when those kids look at you when they're little

that you're daddy and and there

there's an impactful opportunity

to start creating that relationship

early on where you

you're present for them you're aware of them

you're you're

you're you play with them yeah

you're teaching them things

you're but you you do it in a way where

it's building that relationship right right

I remember taking my kids we would

we would load up and go to the skatepark every

every every Saturday morning

and we're all skateboarding

and I'm teaching my kids how to skateboard now

that was the ultimate dream of mine

that I'd have a kid that would embrace skateboarding

the way that I did growing up in the 80s

and none of it happened but we still did

you know what I mean

so when you're when in the early stages

your dad and your daddy

when they become that teenage years

you you the

the worst thing you can do

is move from daddy to friend

and I think what you do what you have to do is

you have to figure out a way in your own

in your own way in your own life is how do you

how do you go from dad to mentor

right because

if you think about the relationship between a mentor

and business and

and business opportunities is

a mentor

is somebody that you can call when you need help

a mentor is somebody that you'll listen to for advice

and a mentor is somebody that will allow you

to make mistakes

yeah through the process and

and and withhold judgment

and withhold and withhold judgment yeah

you know what I mean so you go from daddy to mentor

and then the the

the the

the thing that I love now is

I'm moving from mentor into this age of peer

yeah right

because I'm the peer now like they're their dads right

they're turning into dads

their husbands and that's the same thing

and so

now they're coming to me with different advice about

how do we be successful in business

how do we how do we

how do we you know

our relationship with our

our our

as a dad how do we

how do we take this opportunity to the next level

and so if if I was to like draw this out

that to me you know

you ask how do you create that environment

that's how you do it

you understand your role as

as as daddy as mentor and as peer through the process

and if you think about it

peer doesn't mean that they're independent

pure means that you're in it together now right

and it changes that role of

of you have to go out be independent and get a job and

and and go into debt and

you know get your own place to live to hey

let's do this together

and let's figure out how to be successful together

yeah I

I like this framing about

you know starting from

you know Daddy Dementor the peer

I think it might be more complicated than that

and I wanna push on it a little bit okay

because I can think of a lot of ways

in my relationship with my son

who's only 7

where there well

it's it's not only times

but there are there are situations where I'm daddy

and there are other situations

where I'm being a mentor I'll give you an example um

he asked me to buy him a bunch of stickers of

of Dragons and you know

he had this is weeks ago

we went to we went to target and he was

he was asking to buy some of these stickers

and we couldn't find them

and so he

um I told him we would order them on Amazon

and then I forgot about it

and he reminded me 2 days ago hey

we were supposed to order those stickers on Amazon

and we never did it and I said oh

you're right let's do that right now

I sat down with my phone we browsed

we looked at the stickers

he was actually supposed to buy them

with his own money

but because of the delay I bought them and um

we bought the stickers well

turns out that and so that was very much a daddy thing

yeah

it turns out that the reason he wanted the stickers

and he never even disclosed this to me

was he was making a game a card game

and he got a bunch of index cards

and he put the stickers on them

and those were the characters

and then he put the stats and stuff like that

and he's

he's building a a game a card game like Pokemon

and I'm first of all

I'm blown away by this

he hasn't asked me for any advice

he hasn't asked me for any feedback

or anything like that

he's just built this stack of cards this deck of cards

and um

and so I chimed in this morning and I said hey listen

you know we should

when do we get to start play testing this game

and he's he's like when it's finished I said well

I have a lot of experience with this sort of thing

I'm a software developer and

what you'll find is that

you wanna get to play testing as early as

you can

so that you can iron out the wrinkles of the game

before you've had to build all that stuff

because you might have to redo things like

for example what

if you figure out that one type of character is often

overpowered or underpowered

or has too many hit points or too few hit points

or that sort of thing you can figure this stuff out

if you're play testing the game while you're going

instead of after it's all set and done

he's like wow yeah

that's a really good idea

and then

so now we're having this kind of mentor relationship

yeah and so

so there's there's vectors in which our relationship is

now I'm predominantly daddy

but there are opportunities to be a mentor

and those are ways that I can help propel him forward

and get used to that dynamic

and get hungry for it you agree with me yeah yeah

yeah and I

and I think there's a I

I don't I

there's overlap right

because what's gonna what you will see is

is and this is

this is a beautiful moment

what you'll see is those the

the the bridge between daddy and mentor changes

and soon it's gonna be all mentor yeah

right um yeah

because those opportunities are and

and your son in this in this experience

experience that he's doing and this game creation

which I freaking love dude

I think that's so amazing

it's amazing I

I I'm I'm really so excited about it yeah

I that's just incredible

I that is

he's already moving into that stage of mentorship

that he needs yeah

but he's still gonna lean into that daddy phase

of course he is and

and I I gotta tell you

there's even times now

when I feel like daddy to my 22 year old yeah

you know what I mean and

and so yeah those blur

they blur but I still think that that's the

that's the progression that you'll see as a father

ideally that you'll see as a father

is moving from daddy to mentor

and and the only reason I

I really emphasize on that

is because so many people

try to build that same structure

environment by being friend

and and

and friend is is

is there's a dangerous position in friend

where you lose the ability to encourage correct

motivate challenge

like and

and be there without judgment

yeah let's

let's let's chill down on that a little bit

what what's the problem with being a friend

I think the biggest challenge is what is your intention

are you trying to be liked by your kids

by playing a role that you're not suited for

are you trying to create

an environment where they like you

because you're cool

if you think about the definition of friend like

in my mind friendships are like when you're

when you're trying to build friendships

kids have enough challenge in their teenage

years trying to build friendships

and creating the right type of friend groups

without you being involved in that mix

yeah you know what I mean

and and here's a perfect example my two oldest um

man they didn't have a friend group

like my 2 youngest boys did and

and honestly the difference um

and and through those years was substantial yeah

and I think friends I think kids need their

like teenagers need their own friends and and

and they need to realize and here's a perfect

here's a perfect example of where

that blurs a little bit but I'm gonna

I'm gonna lean in on this from a mentorship standpoint

my wife and I we were uh it was

it was about 9:00

and my son came into the house with his buddies

and they're all laughing and uh

and they're like dad

we just went toilet paper I was like wait

it's 9:00 and you went toilet papering

and they're like yeah

I was like okay

first of all

like how many rolls of toilet paper did you use

oh we only have 3 I'm like okay

hang on so

so this is that

this is that position where you can be a mentor

and still create an opportunity to establish

that relationship

so what I did and my wife was looking at me

cause she was

she was trying to see what how I was gonna take this

I said OK here's here's you go

I pulled out I said here's $300

go to Walmart and buy all the toilet paper you can get

and I said don't buy the cheap stuff

I want the double ply Charmin Tough toilet paper

go buy as much as you can buy with $300

and if anybody has a question

just say you're buying it for your dad

and they can call me and I'll

and I'll approve it so literally

they came back with carloads of toilet paper

and I said okay

at 2 o'clock in the morning

we're gonna go out and we're gonna toilet paper

your friend's house and they're like what

I was like yeah 2 o'clock in the morning

we're gonna go out and we're gonna toilet

350 rolls of toilet paper on a 10 acre

a piece of property with an Orchard

and we plastered it the pictures are incredible

I still have the pictures today

we plastered I taught them how to toilet paper okay

and then we were all done

we're sitting back we're taking pictures I said

okay guys

here's the plan because this was a friend a girl um

a a girl not a girlfriend

but a friend of theirs that was a girl

and they were having a sleepover with other

other girls and they all kind of

they were part of this friend group

I said okay

here's what's gonna happen

tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock

you're gonna go over there and you're gonna help them

clean up

and they're like what

I was like why would we do that

I was like because that's what you do

I said tomorrow morning 10 o'clock

you're gonna go over there and help him clean up

and so we were sitting there

they woke up early because they wanted

and they started seeing the pictures come across

on social media yeah

and they were like these girls were like

oh my gosh I said

you have to do such a good job

that the parents aren't gonna be mad

that they got toilet papered

that's how you have to go over the top

so and so the next day

they went over and they started cleaning up

and they spent the day cleaning up

so here you think about

here's this bunch of kid boys with a bunch of girls

picking up toilet paper together

and I said I guarantee you

all of you guys are gonna have dates the next night

and they did right

look at that so it's not

so it's an opportunity to be able to lean into moments

and I think this is what you have to do as a parent

you have to lean into the moments

that present themselves yeah

so that you can create now look

toilet paper in with kids

that's what friends do

but teaching them the lessons around that

that and

and giving them the opportunity to truly experience it

that's what a mentor does

yeah I think that's a really

really good illustration I think that's

that's a that is a very difficult to tease out

does that difference and it's an important difference

I think I think uh

I think that's a really good

good way to do it yeah

and I get to I gotta tell you in those moments

those are the moments that they talk about

for the years to come yeah

you know

yeah I'm with you 100% on that

so you know

I I

I like to

finish up these conversations by asking everybody

more or less the same question

and that is if you had

if you could think of one principle

that every parent listening

should consider when raising their boys

what would that principle be

you know the

the a quote came to my mind um

right when you said it uh

and it's it's interesting

because it actually uses principles to answer the

the

this principle question

um it's the

the idea of teaching correct principles

and let them govern themselves

you you can't create successful men

if you don't allow them the ability to make mistakes

in those moments

like I I taught chess for 10 years in elementary um

and

and I would teach these kids that chess is 50% losing

50% winning you have to learn how to lose

and you have to teach them the correct principles

to understand that they're not gonna get it initially

and let them fail

and failure

creates an opportunity to have the conversation

to be there when they need you

to create a chance to like

you have

to be able to teach them those correct principles

and let them struggle through them um

so that they can govern themselves

in those principles in the future

yeah

I I

I think that that's one of those things that where the

the result that you're going for

can only be approached obliquely yeah

like I I

I've been um over the last year or so

I started taking up golf and I really

really want my boy to do it with me

and when I started

and it's already been illuminating experience for me

because when I started playing

I was very like and I was showing him how to play

I was you know

instructing him how to stand and how to swing

and do all of this stuff and he hated it

and and so

I just kind of resolved

that this wasn't

gonna be something that we get to do together

and then recently I've been taking him out with me and

um

there were two things I changed

the first thing and it was an accident

but the first thing is I uh

I paid a money to caddy for me 50 cents a hole

and he creates a lot of value as a caddy actually

he he wipes the clubs after after I hit them

he does

he does that for like the other people in my foursome

if we're with other people

he'll Rake the bunkers for me and for other people

he'll get balls if he needs to

all that stuff he does a bunch of stuff

and so he earns his money

but the other thing I'll do is I'll

once we get about 100 yards away from the hole

from the from the hole

I'll just throw his ball out and I'll say OK

you know go hit your ball

I'll meet you on the green

and he'll just grab his club

and he'll swing and swing and swing

until he gets the ball there

and he loves doing that and when he hits it well

he'll be like dad

look how far I hit it and

you know I'll be able to to

like talk about how great that was and

and praise him for that

but what I what I realized in retrospect

is that I was putting the cart before the horse

I was teaching him the right mechanics

I was trying to teach him the right mechanics

and all of that stuff

what I wasn't doing is letting him have fun doing it

yeah and now that I just let him go out and have fun

he will come to me or he won't

but he will come to me and go man

I really want to hit the ball farther

how do I do that yeah

or I want to hit it more reliably

how do I do that

and then I'll be able to tell him what I've Learned

yeah and

and then it'll it'll either take with him or it won't

and I can't control that

I can't control whether it takes but but

but what I can do is create the environment

where we can have this real

special time together where he craves that

instead I was turning it into this freaking

you know I don't know this

this this other thing

that wasn't fun I was turning it into a job

well you

and you know what's interesting about what you said and

and man

that resonates so well um

Victor Wooten is one of the best bass players I

I would put him at the top two on my list

I play I've played music my whole life

um and I actually

I actually had the opportunity to meet

and to play with Victor Wooten in

in a short moment which was incredible

wow but he talks about the way we teach music is wrong

and if you think about it

think about how this

how this parallels what you just said we

we teach kids how to read music

we teach them the notes we teach them theory

we teach them scales we teach them chords

we teach them how to read music

but we don't ever teach them

we don't begin by teaching them how to play

yeah and we don't give them the love

for playing and creating music

and if you think about it

he uses this this analogy in his book

he talks about when we when a child begins to speak

we don't tell them no

you can't talk to us yet

cause you don't know how to read

we actually we actually go down to their level and

and it's I'm watching my son

my oldest son do this right now with his

his little girl he's talking to her in her own language

yep right

we actually go down and we start gigging with them

and we give them the joy of learning how to speak

and it's the same thing with music

if we can give people kids or students

the love of music first the theory and the rules and

and the reading that will all come yeah

but if they never understand the love of it

they'll never ask the why

and I think that's exactly what you've done

with your son

is you're showing him the love of the game

and the moments when he needs to start asking questions

you're there for him as a mentor

yep right

which is which is powerful

and I think that's

if we're paralleling this to the Ted talk

and what I Learned is that that's how we stay aware

and we stay in front of the change

that's how we do that's how

as parents we

we are

we're part of their lives

we're present in their lives

we're creating those opportunities

to help them have experiences where

then when the question of how and why and what come

we're there to be able to mentor them yeah

it's like our job

is

to create the environment where the magic can happen

and then cultivate whatever magic does happen

yep

but the instant you start to try to create a specific

piece of magic you'll kill yeah

and and

and they'll resent it and they'll like you

and that's where you think about

set them up for success yeah

create the environment for them to succeed

create the environment for them to learn

and then let them go

so that they can be able to be a part of it

but stay present stay engaged

and stay actively aware

so that you can be able to make those tiny

little adjustments

as you're driving down this course of life

I think that's a beautiful place to end it Ryan

thank you so much for joining us today and and

and sharing your insight on uh

on on being aware and catching emotional drift early

um

for our listeners

please make sure to check out his series books for boys

his Tedx talk

the links to all of those things are in the show notes

and as always thank you for listening to Raising Men

and remember that you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino