there's so many ways that we're trying to say no

without saying you know

the actual word no um

and I think when we realize that as human beings we

we realize that if if anything

you know you want someone's

what I call empowered yes

more than you want anything else

it's like do you really want to do this

are you sure you're okay with doing this

you know

there's those checking in where you could make sure

like

I have someone who fully wants to be in this with me

rather than someone who I've just

I'm okay kind of overlooking all the other

you know signals that say this

welcome back to raising men

now one of the superpowers that we need to instill

in our boys even our girls

especially our girls maybe

is the idea of establishing and respecting boundaries

so joining us today is Tiffany Braxton

she's an author an activist and an educator

and as a mother of four children and a survivor herself

Tiffany has dedicated her work to transforming heavy

often intimidating conversations into approachable

life changing tools

her debut book Consent Comics utilizes vivid

layered storytelling to teach youth

parents and educators about personal power

honest communication and respect

Tiffany welcome to raising men

yeah thank you so much for having me

I'm I'm excited about our conversation

um really love this podcast and the focus

so I appreciate the invite

oh thank you so much

I you know

I think that a lot of uh

that like

a lot of concepts

that you'd think would be totally uncontroversial

the topic of consent

has gotten overloaded with a lot of baggage

in a way that I think is really unhelpful

what do you see as some of the problems we're facing

when trying to cultivate a respect for boundaries

in our boys and young men

yeah I mean

I think the first thing is

it is not at all approachable or welcoming um

to men and boys I mean

it's literally why in my book

you just get into a few pages

and I have a letter to the guys

yeah because

you know I didn't want to wait to say hey

you're welcome you know

this was an invitation to you as well

and not just to what consent teaching typically is

which is usually for more

so for women and girls

this is so much more than just that

and you know

I have to shout out the

the men in my life that I really love

that made it so that I couldn't

you know ignore

you know the half

quote unquote

half of the population um

in my approach to consent

you know um

I have a wonderful father who raised me to be

you know a young woman who used her voice and was

you know was strong along the way and

you know I thank him for that

and you know

as a survivor coming back to my voice I

I went straight to him you know

I went he was my biggest support um

you know I'm close to my mom

but that is that is my dad

and he's wonderful um

and then I also have a a son and

and 4 grandsons um

for my adopted daughters so I

you know I couldn't leave the men out

like I almost

it's like I wanna give you a really big consensual hug

you know and say like

come on come on

you know like you're

you're so welcome here and I want you I

I actually want you in the conversation

I think that I can't

we can't have a conversation without you

yeah I

I think one of the things that really hit me

right off the gate

uh right out of the gate when I was reading your book

mm hmm is that you

a lot of the conversation around this subject

has created

probably unconsciously or whatever

of this us versus them mentality

and that mentality is almost never the right framing

to approach something

especially something as sensitive and as important as

as consent

and you blow that out of the water from page 1 it

it was like oh

this is different yeah

and I really appreciated that yeah

if I mean

like I said it was

it was really important to me and

you know part of my approach

you know it's

it's comics you know

hence consent comics it's pretty self explanatory

but the biggest thing that I had to do

and I can you know

show it here is I had to figure out a character um

that I could have in these stories

where people weren't like

oh my gosh she's

she's showing these people like this and

you know this male is doing this

um because honestly

when I think about it a lot of times when I do see

you know a pictorial example of consent and it has

you know the male female dynamic it

it already kind of takes me out of it as well

even as a female because I'm

you know kind of identifying their features

how they are and I'm thinking like

how much that could realistically be me

and I think even more so for

you know

men to really be able to join this conversation

I had to make sure that the antagonist wasn't always

a male

and I think nine times out of 10 when you see things

it's it's most often a male

but the reality is you know

I think one that you know

assaults are very underrated under

you know just like they're

they're not as um

people aren't telling you as much because

you know with males you have like the um

this almost like this macho like OK

well I'm not gonna

you know I'm not gonna talk about this

or I'm not gonna report this um

and the reality is I think

you know that

there's a lot more assaults on males

than we want to even recognize

in a in a society

I know that even in my approach

um

I had a cousin who was telling me all kinds of stories

of you know

these women that have just completely

you know

like handled him in ways that were inappropriate

and he's not going you know

to a supervisor and saying hey

she just did this to me right

but you know

he has every right to and

and he you know

obviously appreciated this approach

because he felt like he could just tell me his stories

and that I would I would care

you know and I think that's ultimately

you know what my approach does

it shows like I I care about every human being

being treated the way that they should

I don't care if you're male or female

you know if you're gay or straight

if you're black or white like all of those things

I want each and every one of us to feel like we

have the space that is you know

safety around our bodies and

and ultimately our decisions

um regardless of who we are

yeah I

I think another one of the things

that is really harmful about the us versus them

dynamic that

that you so dexterously avoid is

is that it I mean it's

it's painting boys as the aggressors

or potential aggressors almost universally

and you know

how are you gonna

there you're only

you're gonna get two possible responses from that

No. 1 you're gonna browbeat the boy

who's reading this

into believing that he's a potential aggressor

which isn't by the way

that's not a great signal to send that person

no because the other thing he's gonna do is

he's gonna embrace

well I guess that's just who I am and

and I deserve to be who I am

and so I'm just gonna embrace the toxicity of it

and I think that we are seeing

I think that's really the way that

the issue has been framed over the last 10 years

yeah

and I think we're seeing the fruits of that right now

yeah and it's all yeah

I know I have to agree on that

you know I think as a mother to a son

I wanted to give my son something to grasp that said

look at this you know

like of course

you know in each of my stories

you'll see you know

a lines crossed version where someone's not respecting

a boundary at an apology version

where they realize kind of like oh

I'm starting to pressure someone and I need to

you know about face and really apologize

and then they see the version of like

this is how you're respectful

kind of from the beginning um

I wanted my son to know that

that was something he could aspire to

rather than this is who you are

and this is who you don't need to be

um and I think

and in our society unfortunately

we are we really are pushing boys to just

to have that mentality of like

just don't do it and I

I like to say like

even Nike gives us a just do it right

it's a positive affirmation

it's not some negative of like

don't be like this don't be like this

you know and that's what Consent Comics does

is I wanted to show people like

this is what you can be like

and this is what we can all strive to be like

and truly in some ways

you know depending on where you are

it's a journey and this is how you get there

now let me

so there's there's a whole other extreme that

that you can go to in the

in the

in the consent discussion

and you know I

I'm reminded of this uh

of this episode of a show called New Girl where

and she grew up in uh

in Oregon mm hmm

and uh

and so she and her boyfriend they

they they were flashing back to a high school scene

with her and her boyfriend and

and you could tell that they

both really wanted to engage in some physical behavior

but they had to go through this

ridiculous and labyrinthine

um consent ritual

which was just it was

it was intentionally ridiculous

but it's almost like and I mean

that's the other extreme that almost

that in order to

make sure that you're crossing all your t's

and dotting all your I's with respect to consent

you're destroying all the spontaneity of it

mm hmm

and I get the sense that you would disagree with that

perspective yeah

so tell me what your thoughts are about that and

and what a healthy vision of mutual consent looks like

mm hmm I think in any relationship or situation

there's kind of a there's a progression

right of where you start out

and kind of where you are currently

um you know my

my current partner you know there

there was definitely the asking first

over and over and over again

um I

but I think that any relationship there's

there's communication it's kind of like um

I mean if you take like

tea or coffee you know my

my partner no longer has to ask

if I want tea or coffee in the morning

it's it's usually I

I want some tea or coffee in the morning

right and so

but I know

that if I don't want tea and coffee in the morning

he's not gonna say oh my gosh

like I can't believe you

we always do tea and coffee in the morning

so like why are you changing things up on me

and so you know

we you know

we usually have like conversations

but it's you know

there still is very much you

in any relationship there's that spontaneity

but it's it's safe spontaneity

yeah it's safe in the sense that

you know no matter what's going on

no matter where we are in whatever situation

I know that my voice still carries weight

and so if I am saying like

hey I don't wanna do this

then it's a OK

moving on um

there's that safety in me saying no

whenever I want to say no

you know and I think that's something that

you know I

a married couple even like right you're

you're gonna

you're gonna grow into that kind of situation where um

as long as you've built that safety

you know there can be that spontaneity

but I know I can always turn around and say like no

I you know

I'm tired no

I'm not feeling well no

I'm not up for it this time

no I don't want you doing that

you know

and that's really what these comics show is like

that's the respecting of the no is kind of

it's the baseline

and then everything else is like built up

on top of that you know

and once you know

you have that safety of like

there's no consequences whatsoever to my no

then I think everything kind of builds from that

you know and then you don't have to um

you know you can even say I

I always tell people like

you can have a conversation where you say hey

I don't need you to ask me about this anymore

you know if I'm not feeling it

like I'll let you know that I'm not feeling it um

and that's the that's why I try to stay away from rules

you know because when you start putting rules in place

then you know

like people gets too nervous to really do anything

and that's where you get kind of an episode like that

where it's like oh can can

you know and you're so nervous where if we're really

if you're really caring about someone

you know you'll do that

that checking in of like is it okay

you know if I do this

and it's it's just natural

oh yeah

this is great let's keep going

you know um

and so I I really try to give room for

you know relationships and growth and there being

you know fluid moments within those um

but always knowing that like

you know the baseline is

I've made it very clear to you

and you've made it very clear to me

that if you wanna say no you're perfectly fine

if you wanna change your mind

it's perfectly fine all of that is completely good

um and that's

I think really what makes

you know a

a sexual relationship

or any relationship in any kind of way work

when you know that you have the freedom of choice

you know I

I

one of the founding kind of

reasons for this whole project

for me

was because I feel like we're in a masculinity crisis

mm hmm and the nature of that masculinity crisis

is that we're losing sight

our culture is losing sight

of a healthy vision of masculinity

and there's a bunch of reasons that that's happening

and we don't have to belabor them here but um

and and I think that a lot of people

struggle to even define healthy masculinity

uh huh

but one of the key definitions that I think is very

very important is

is someone who's exhibiting healthy masculinity

makes people feel safe right

and secure right

that's what a man does right

in the in the

in the healthy masculinity sense

and the metaphor that I like to use is

is that of a castle and

you know your success as

as a man as a

as a healthy masculine person

is defined by the kinds

and breadth of activities that can thrive

under your domain yeah

your castle is large and the walls secure those people

and the people inside your castle walls

feel like they can do what they

wanna do I love that yeah

that's what it means in in

in my view to be a healthy man

uh huh

and that requires not all the ability to set boundaries

you need to be able to build walls

in order to be a healthy man

mm hmm it also requires the ability to respect them

mm hmm yeah

and I mean nobody

nobody I know wants someone to feel unsafe

and yet yeah

we will often engage in activity that has that result

yeah

and so I I think one of the things that I really liked

um about your book

or that I really like about your book is

is that you you actually

I mean it's very geared towards consent in

as applied to sexuality it

you know consent takes a particular um

wait when it comes to sexuality

it does yeah

cause like

consent about here you know

eat this candy bar I don't want to no

no you have to try it right

like that's still a

that's still a kind of violation of the boundary

but it's not a problem the

the way that that

that that uh

that sexuality would be

but you also have you have all these stories

that make it clear that these are universal principles

it's not just applied to sexuality

it's also applied to hey

this kid you know this

this friend of mine made me eat a cake

yeah right

and it's and it's the

it's the same thing and it applies

it applies to everybody and anybody

can be a person who's crossing the boundary

and anybody

can be a person who's trying to enforce the boundary

in any

in in different situations

and that's that's something that I think is

completely absent from most

of the discussions around consent

it yeah

it feels like it feels like people are giving a recipe

whereas you're giving a philosophy yeah

yeah and and I mean

that's really I think it what we're humans right

you can't a one recipe doesn't fit everybody

and that's really what I didn't want to do was

I didn't want to make sure I was saying like

here now you have I'm forcing you to take this in

if anything I'm giving you a choice because

you know you're reading it

and stories allow for you to interpret it

and you know

I obviously I wrote it in a way where

you're not going to come away with like oh

I want to be someone who like

never ask anybody what they want to do or like

you know I

I don't wanna be you know

I don't I don't wanna be that person that

respects that boundary that looked

you know too wonderful

but I'm writing it in a way where

you can start seeing yourselves in these stories

you know and think about it and like you said

a a more broad way you know

of like how am I

you know how am I when I'm like

you know someone in general is telling me

you know they don't wanna do something that I

you know I wanna do

am I you know

am I accommodating am I like

or am I guilt tripping them

do I guilt trip them you know

when I I really want them to do something

that I want them to do you know

am I someone who holds holds

you know withhold some kind of information

to trick someone into doing something

you know for me

I think a lot of times even we as parents

you know uh

we have to be careful because I think

you know when

when our kids are toddlers and

you know we

we're at a restaurant

and we don't want them to scream and yell

we do a lot of like manipulation for

you know in order to get that to not happen right

um but as they grow older

you know that needs to um

we need to allow them to grow right

and so like

how much are we even manipulating our children

you know in terms of like OK

are we trying to control their feelings by

you know presenting something in a certain way

or should we allow them to like

actually have all of their feelings

you know and

and um

and guide them through it

so I think there's like

there's just a balancing act and

and I'm not saying it's even one or the other

what I'm saying is you know

this this type of approach allows you to just

think about those things you know

and like I said you know

like like you said

build that philosophy within yourself of

what does it look like

for me to be a consensual partner

a consensual you know

parent a consensual friend um

a consensual human being toward others um

and how can I grow in that space

um you know

just as I want other people to treat me

you know how am I gonna treat them

and so you know

it's it's kind of funny because um

just even in in coming on this podcast

I was thinking about I was

you know

I was talking to a woman and she said that her book

or she said that like in you know

in my book it was like

it made her think about consent in a very different way

and she had always thought about it like as a

as a female like OK

am I consenting to something because of

you know like

because of the approach that we've

we've talked about and suddenly

like within my book she started saying

you know OK

am I you know

allowing people to consent when I want something

you know am I how

how often am I asking you know

how often am I approaching someone like they have

you know a choice

you know and

she said

it just completely flipped things around for her um

and so I think that's what happens when you

when you just lay these stories out

you allow for

people to have a much bigger understanding

of what consent really is

and then it's almost like

you don't even want to use the word consent

you want to use the word you know

the words healthy relationships and boundaries and

and respect and value

because I think that really consent comics teaches

you know consent as just valuing other human beings

you know and

and safety even I

I love that word um

because it really is about

having these safe relationships

and that doesn't mean you never like

step on each other's toes

but it more so is like when you do

you know that

that person actually cares

and is gonna try and make up for it um

and make you feel safe again

yeah I

I think that you when I think back to my

um to

times when I feel like I went along with something

that I didn't really consent to

mm hmm um

I recognize how difficult it is to say no

yeah and once you kind of

have that realization about yourself

you now get a sort of a different respect

uh huh to

if somebody says no to you

yeah like

it took a lot of courage for that to happen

in a lot of cases yeah

yeah and so man

you really need to take a step back

and what is what does that mean

because it takes a I mean

it again

it takes a great deal of courage to step up and say no

and try to enforce the boundary

and so like

you still

pushing against the boundary is a real problem

in that circumstance yeah

yeah exactly

and I you know

I really like that you even brought that up of like

the difficulty of in saying no because um

you know I

I think a lot of times about people when they're like

oh they didn't just

why didn't they just say no

you know and then I think about

you know some of those same people

it's like you know

depending on what relationship they're in

you know they realize

oh my gosh like okay

when I'm with my you know

my mom and she's kind of overbearing

and she's pushing this and that

it's it's actually really hard for me to stick with my

no with her um

or even say no you know

cause I'm trying to avoid this or that

uh and

you know

the difficulty in saying no is it's very universal

you know that I don't think anyone has any

the like all relationships where they're like

oh I'm good

I you know

I can just I tell this person no

I tell that person no

and so it's really good to recognize that

that's actually why in my

book I even have like a resource called um

The Different Ways People Say no

and it looks like this here

and it's literally just like

it has non verbal nose and verbal nose

yeah and it's none of those are actually like

quote unquote no

it's something like pausing or tensing up or fidgeting

or you know

look I think one of the

one of the ones that people use a lot now is like

looking down at your phone

you know like just

just trying to avoid um

the tension in the conflict

which you don't you don't wanna do something

you know it's also like saying

I don't know it's saying maybe

you know like

there's so many ways that we're trying to say no

without saying you know

the actual word no um

and I think when we realize that as human beings we

we realize that if if anything

you know you want someone's

what I call empowered yes

more than you want anything else

it's like do you really want to do this

are you sure you're okay with doing this

you know

there's those checking in where you could make sure

like

I have someone who fully wants to be in this with me

rather than someone who I've just

I'm okay kind of overlooking all the other

you know signals that say this

you know and

and nonverbal communication there's

there's nothing new about it

you know like I remember growing up

like my mom just had to have a look and I knew OK

I'm gonna back out of this room right now and

you know I'm

I'm done mom

I'm good you know yeah

um and so

you know it's just like

I think it you know

we as humans we gotta remember that like

these aren't these aren't new principles

there's nothing new

about realizing that someone's saying something

without actually speaking it um

you know or someone's dancing

kind of around with other words

and trying to say something

that's hard for them to say um

and that's really what I try to

get people to understand like

we don't have to look at this as just in

like a consent bubble this is in like all of life

yeah I

I actually I think that some of the

pathology around the way that our culture is handling

and the way that our culture handled me too and

and some of those other things is really rooted in

a kind of cultural illness that we have

around the notion of boundaries

and consent more widely and that the sexual

you know

um transgressions

mm hmm that are the

are just the tip of the spear of what is more broadly

just kind of a a

a immaturity around

setting and respecting boundaries in our culture

at large and part of the resistance that I think that

that we got from men to me too was around or or

was birthed in the fact that

that it was part of something broader

and you're not right

addressing the broader thing

you're just addressing the part where I'm at fault

right right

you're not addressing the part where I'm also a victim

mm hmm and I think if we can

why in that cultural aperture

if we can if we can have the discussion

the way that you're trying to have it where no

it this is

this is a universal thing and it applies to everybody

and right don't you want a willing partner yeah

like in everything you do

don't you want someone who's enthusiastic and is

and is

and is beside you and is rowing in the same direction

who's freaking thrilled yeah

yeah you do

so let's just make sure that that's where we always are

yeah

yeah yeah

I I mean

I think that's like it's like

you know that's a really hard

like topic even because

you know obviously

like me too you know

had some you know

positives that came from it

but I did notice it was like

you know even the males in my life they

they got scared yeah

you know um

they did get scared and it's like

as a female I was definitely cheering on like okay

women feel like empowered to

you know talk about what's been happening to them

but I do think it

I almost wanted to see the same enthusiasm

like if a male had come up and said like

this happened to me you know yeah

um because

you know I know even

like even

and in Hollywood you know

like I don't know if you saw that show

I forget what it was called

it was like oh

baby reindeer um

it was on Netflix and it was like

really popular recently and yeah

I never heard about it yeah

so he um

the main character he basically is

you know is drugged and raped yeah

um by a

excuse me by a male producer

right and it

it's you know

it's horrific but I

it's really highlighting

and this is like based upon his true story

it was highlighting that like

that's not that's not unheard of

just men against women it's men against men

and yeah it is

you know and so

and I know of you know

I have I have friends who have stories

you know same thing

where I'm like oh my gosh

like you know

and so for me it's like

I almost wanted to take the Me Too movement and say

like that's great

but like I wanted to expand it to where

you know I want males to come forward

and to know that they're gonna be cared about too um

because you know

they're humans

and I know that our society is built in a way where

you know it like

you know even in the justice system

you know it

it is catered more to males

I'm not gonna like disagree with that

but I do wanna make sure that like men know that like

hey if you come forward

you know like we who are cheering on

you know all these other people in their bravery

I'm I'm cheering you on too

you know and um yeah

I feel like

it would have been nice to hear more stories of

you know of men saying like

this happened to me and this

you know affected me um

you know and

and I was in this abusive relationship

because a lot of times

I don't think sometimes they even realize um

the abuse I was actually just

on a phone call a couple weeks ago with a male pastor

he's a Baptist preacher

and he was in a domestic violent um

relationship he

and he was the you know

he was the um

with he was the victim in it and

you know it's it

you know it's a shame cause I'm like oh

you know like he was told just like

you know other like

just like the women in the church

he was told to stay in that relationship

you know um

but you know

he ended up you know

getting out eventually thankfully

but it was just just hearing that story

I'm like we need to

we need to see that this isn't just a

you know male versus female and

and female versus male but this is like

this is really just two human beings right

yeah and I want people to see that

like at the very start of it

if we start with the humanity of it all

um then

you know

I'm hoping that every relationship is affected by

learning about consent you know

because it's geared toward

it's geared toward our humanity

it's not geared toward this sex or that sex um

and I truly care like

honestly thinking about the stories that I know of

where men are the victims

and that was the point of

you know that letter to the guys recognize

I mean

we even know about it in the pre with the priests right

yeah priests usually went after the boys

you know um

unfortunately right

so I those stories break my heart

just as much as the stories of the

of the women that have been um

that have been victims as well

I don't want anybody to be a victim okay

like that's just the reality

I don't want I don't want anybody to be a victim

I don't care what you look like um

and and what sex you are

and that's really what I was trying to get at

you know and so

you know hopefully when it comes to movements

it's like me too can be more of a

you know all of us too eventually

you know it had

I think it it had its place and it has its place but um

you know I would love to see

you know kind of the

the male counterpart of that

of like men coming forward as well

cause I like I said um

I do think that it is underreported because of

you know a lot of things that um

kind of go against the culture of it

you know it's not

I mean

I don't know of many stories where men come forward and

and and this is

cause this is a really normal story for us as women we

you know we talk about like a

something that happened with us and

and how we were um

abused and our friends just gather around us

and it's really beautiful

um and

you know

I would love for that to be the norm for males as well

you know

and even if it's like I was in the club and this woman

she started grabbing at me

and it made me feel really uncomfortable

you know like

which would be more so my cousin's story or if it was

you know the preacher's story where he's saying

you know I

I was in this relationship and

you know my wife was

cut me with some knives and things like that

and I was told to stay and we're like

oh my gosh

um it would just be great to see more of that

you know there's

there's that show right now off campus

and it's showing really great

um and I've started

watching some of it because everybody's like

you gotta watch it cause you

of what you you know

what your work is um

and so you know

I really love what it's showing

you know I think it's

it's kind of showing like more so what my book does

it's like it's showing the

like what this actually looks like

rather than just giving people rules right

um and

you know I haven't finished the show

but I'm like you know

it would be great if you know

maybe one of the male characters had a story of abuse

as well you know

and you know

we got an example of what that would look like

for men to gather around them

you know instead of being like really

come on you're not happy that she grabbed you

you know um

and you know

that's kind of an aspect of

of this society that we don't think what

that we don't talk about yeah

I think all of those dynamics that that

that have been brought into such high relief

um about women

women experiencing um

uh

you know like sexual transgressions

um

apply

probably even more for men

I think it

I think it's something that most men would view

is shameful yeah

even if when it happened they were children right right

um I think that

they do not

feel like it would be something that they would want

in the light that they would feel supported right

about right or

or I mean I

and so as a culture we have a lot of work to do there

and I mean I think that

you know I think that this philosophy that you're

essentially espousing in your book is

is such a healthy way to to have that discussion and

you know you're

you're doing God's work with that

and yeah and thanks I'm

it really it really struck me when

when I first opened the book

I was like oh

this is a different way of thinking about it

and I really really like it

yeah let me ask you this

what your

your book is generally geared towards older readers

you know um

and and I mean

it very directly handles

the application of the boundaries in

and consent in a sexual context

yeah

so it's not something I could give to my 7 year old no

yeah no um

in your opinion

how do we cultivate the skill of setting and enforcing

and respecting boundaries in younger children or

or is that even a thing that we should be doing

it seems like it should it seems like

we should be able to lay the groundwork there

uh huh but what do you

how do you think that works

yeah well

I mean I think

you know for me

because I have my you know

I had my kids obviously

and I have my my grandkids

I have my seven year old grandson you

know and boundaries right now and

and you know

relationship dynamics

that is something that we are already approaching um

with him and

and we talk about I always tell him I'm like

you know Chris

if you had just asked about this first

you know like that

cause you know

for them it's like OK

I'm gonna I'm gonna do this and they don't

just don't think about that yet um

and so we we talk a lot about just

just asking about this first

even if it's right now it's like

the amount of noise he'll bring to a room that's quiet

out of nowhere you know

and it's like you know

he's like I'm gonna just I'm

you guys are chilling here

so I'm gonna bring in my banjo and just

you know or I'm gonna start playing

he has a Simon game and it's so loud

you know and he just will start playing it and I said

Chris you know

I just you know

I just need you to ask us hey

do you guys mind if I play this in here

you know you kind of like

you kind of have to start reading the Room as a kid

and realize

I can't just bring whatever I want into this space

whenever I feel like it you know

it's good to ask about that um

the other thing you know

that I make sure I always show him is really respecting

you know his boundaries

you know so a lot of times like I won't always say like

as I think as as a parent

you know like we realize like

you know you're not always gonna say

you know do you want a hug

you know but I like when my kids are upset

I certainly say like you know

can I hug you right now and that

you know do you want a hug right now

yeah um

you know and then even with

you know his his privacy

you know he knows that like

he can set like

the different boundaries when he wants to about like

you know when grandma

you know can see him

like coming out of the bathtub and when I cannot

you know and he's just

certainly just got to the age where he's like

grandma and I'm like alright

so we're there you know

and you just like next time I'll

I'll make sure we I knock and you know

and so

and he knows like he can grow kind of grow into even um

his boundaries and his independence

and so I think it's a kind of a constant um

showing of like

respect and how do you show respect with him

and you know he's he's slowly getting it um

you know less so with the room and and all the noise

but he does understand you know

like just like you know

his his autonomy and other people's autonomy

but we're not using the word autonomy yet

you know yeah

yeah

you know one of the

one of the really

clear principles that has come out of this work for me

is the fact that stuff has to be modeled

as opposed to explained right

you can explaining

is a way of helping people understand what was modeled

mm hmm and then it can take root and

and so I always search for ways to

to to

to model that or or to

when you're trying to create the lesson

to try to figure out how to model it

and I love this

I love this framing that you have of the

even this this making noise in a quiet room thing

yeah is an exercise in

in boundaries in consent

and even that is an opportunity to model both the

you know the

the a way of enforcing the boundary

hey Chris

like

we're all in here enjoying our peace and quiet in here

and you just came in and did this um

you know that's fine that you wanna do that

there's nothing wrong with wanting to do that

but you need to ask first

mm hmm um

and in this case we're probably gonna say no

and we're gonna give you an alternative right right

we usually say you can go into the living room

yeah and go

go crazy in there well

yeah and

and that's okay too there is nothing wrong

and there's kind of a a

shame reaction that they that they might have

I mean if you have the normal reaction of Chris

quiet down what are you doing

like that yeah

that's that's shame producing

and that is not a valuable

that is not a valuable tool exactly

that is a tool to

that is more likely gonna drive people away

and drive people into a into a place where that

uh behavior is lauded yeah

yeah as opposed to

you know as opposed to

to not and

uh huh

and so like

I don't know I don't let

actually let me ask you that question

what do you think the role of shame

if any is in this topic

yeah um

gosh that's a really good question

cause at first

I wanted to say there's no rule whatsoever

yeah that's

that's I'm I

that's my hypothesis but I think yeah

that we're running up against the boundaries here

of where it might yeah

I mean obviously

like we're human right

so like I could

I can give you an answer

but I'll probably be thinking about this for a week

yeah

and then I might land somewhere a little bit different

yeah um

but I do think sometimes shame has a role in um

you know societal shame

I will say that

societal shame can have a role in changing a behavior

maybe like changing a behavior for someone who's like

doesn't care otherwise um

but I think even then there's a delicate

balance of like is there something for them to turn to

after they're like oh gosh

you're right

that was a really terrible thing for me to do

and how could I do that um

you know because we can't land in shame you can't like

you can't like have someone just stay in shame

that's what is that gonna do for anybody

that's not gonna change anything

you know correct so

you know I would say like if um

you know I actually have a you know

there's a group that I support it's a domestic violence

um it's a domestic violence shelter

and they recently started a program that was called um

well I won't say the name

cause I don't wanna like give away which place it was

I don't know and have people look this up

cause even they said this program is new

you know but we're recognizing

especially because it within abusive relationships

on average it takes someone seven times

before they will actually leave

and so they started a program for the abuser and it's

you know it's a very intense therapy

you know it's it's therapy

it's you know a lot of teaching um

but it's really trying to get them to understand

what it is that they have been doing

maybe where that comes from

because their belief is nobody is born an abuser

so these you know

these things that they're doing

they came from somewhere can we unearth it

and figure this out

especially for those relationships where

you know this

um and they usually work with women

but they also say

they have men that come to their shelter

you know um

but where this um

you know where this abuser got these

these issues from and can we do

you know try and help them like

you know

figure it out for themselves so that they can stop

and of course you know

these people come because they want to stop

and you know

I think one of the things that they do feel in coming

is you know

and especially

once they realize what they've been through

is it's kind of like the opposite of a survivor

a lot of times when we realize what we've been through

um and the realities of it like that

then our shame kind of like breaks because we're like

wow this is just terrible for anybody to go through

and I nobody deserves this

um but I think on the flip side

they start feeling that shame right

but this program uses that shame and

you know has them like go through it and

and obviously um

you know I can't ever say

I don't know if they're like

you know get free of that shame later on

but um

you know I

I do think in some ways maybe shame has its place

but you know

not here you will get no shame here

you know yeah that

was not that was not the role of this

this is the place that you

this is what you read after you feel ashamed

and you're like I really wanna change

yeah I uh

I like that okay

what are your thoughts I really struggle

this is one of my hobby horses is yeah

is I wonder what the role of

what the appropriate role of shame is

and right

one thing I do know is as a weapon

it is really overused yeah

I agree with that and

I actually haven't encountered a situation

in my personal life where it was the right thing to do

uh huh it wasn't the right thing for me to be shamed

yeah or the right thing for me

to impose shame on somebody else

to try to make someone else feel that way right

and I mean and the bottom line is one of

one of the

one of the truths there is that

only people capable of feeling shame

will actually feel shame that's true

and you will you by

it's like an antibiotic

you will actually create super bugs

people who are immune to shame

as a result of trying to apply it and to misapply it

yeah no

I think we're seeing that in our culture

a lot of that yeah

yeah cause sometimes the shame doesn't even

it doesn't affect people at all

you know exactly yeah

because you know

I mean it's especially people who are very

hyper online there's

you know a lot of that right

I mean it's just and

and so you just kind of roll your eyes okay

here's you know

another snowflake telling me about

you know what a jerk I'm being by yeah

some relatively minor thing

and then the transgressions get

get greater and greater

to where not a minor thing anymore

and yeah I think that's the mechanism

I wish that happens but um yeah

I don't know it's

it's interesting to think about well

I always like to end these conversations uh

by asking um

a similar question to everybody

and I'm really interested to hear your viewpoint

and I know I'm putting you on the spot

but that's part of the fun

yeah I know

and it's part of the way you get such a great response

but if there is one principle

that you think every parent listening should live by

when raising their kids what would it be

oh you know what

this is good timing cause it was just Father's Day

yes and I was just thinking

about what it is that my dad did with me

to make me feel so safe with him

um you know

like I said after I went through what I did

you know he was actually the first parent

that I called and opened up to um

and so I think you know

and and

you know

thinking about like what it was that he was doing

um with me growing up

he showed me that he was willing to adjust

like there was never any rigidity when it came with

you know to like

when it came to how he approached me

he was always willing to learn and listen and adjust

and and

and adjusting I always

I felt like you know

I was being supported for who I

you know was and am

as opposed to who he might want

you know might be trying to help me grow into

you know and so um

just not feeling like I was always getting

you know hitting a brick wall

but feeling like I was I had someone who was willing to

like learn um

who I was and and

and parent me in those ways that I needed um

as opposed to what he might have thought

yeah was that a surprise to you that

that he was as supportive as it is

you must have known I mean

you chose him

ha ha and so

you must have known at some level

that it was likely to to turn out well what

what do you mean with well

I mean I mean

you know his

you mentioned your your your

your dad's reaction was to be adaptive

and to really see you for who you were

and he was really supportive in that

did you expect that that was gonna be the result

or was that a surprise to you

you know what it was kind of a surprise to me because

you know just like

no matter what the relationship is

it just takes a lot to open up to anyone

sure um

with your story and so

I think honestly you know

here I am years later I realized why

more so than like knowing why I was going to him

you know it was just like now I look back and I'm like

okay I Learned things from that where I'm like

no wonder he felt safe you know

but you know

I didn't it wasn't like something within me

I think you know

there was a part of it where it just

it broke because honestly

the story is he had just spent like a week with me

and he knew something was off

you know he said

you know and his

the way he describes it as a dad like

you know he was hugging his daughter

and she was suddenly not there

you know and so he knew something was off

um and I wasn't opening up

and then he literally is driving away

and I call him and I finally

I just I couldn't do it face to face

and I finally called him and I said like

you know dad

he did some things to me and he's like

I knew it and he's like

you know what this means don't you

and I was like no

he's like it means I'm turning around you

know and then he literally just came and he spent like

a week with me just to be there

he wasn't asking me questions

you know like he was just trying to be there

um and so yeah

I'm trying not to tear up because that's like

one of those stories where I'm like

that will always live with me

you know like when it comes to um

like you said that that safety yeah

he built that castle he was that safety for me

yeah and so

like when I really needed that safety

like I couldn't help but go to it eventually

what a great story yeah

so hurrah for like

all you dads out there trying to be that safe space

yeah good job

good good job

yeah good job

Tiffany's dad hahaha

so where can uh

Tiffany where

where where

do people go to learn more about you and your work

mm hmm yeah

so I mean the

I have a website consentcomics.com

um you can buy the book on Amazon

bookshop.org and Barnes and noble

and I even saw that it was on eBay

but don't do that

cause they're just trying to resell it for like

really expensive I don't know what that's about

but um

you know you can go there

I also have an Instagram I am Tiffany Braxton um

as well as TikTok and all those other things

um but

you know I really more than anything

like the best place is just to start in the book um

because you'll like there's

I can describe it all day

but until you experience it

you know you don't see

you know you can't see and

and know what it is that you'll get from it

and I can't even tell you because a lot of times

like I said like that woman who was like

I always thought about consent

just in terms of my consent

you know

like I never expected to get that story from someone

you know but I

I get so many stories of just people seeing

different things you know

or it's like

even my friend who has like an 11 year old girl

and she's just this girl

has just been reading through it over and over again

um you know

and just you know

loves it and I'm like OK I

I love that for her and

and how great is it that an 11 year

old girl has this in her back pocket already

you know um

and so yeah I just really recommend that you

you know you pick up the book and um

truly

share it with whoever you think will be helped by it

you know

I have a problem with honestly giving it away because

because you know

I was like I just gave it away to one of the

you know women at the domestic violence shelter

right because I know that

you know whatever it is that

they need

they can probably find it within these stories

and so yeah

that's that's really

you know like all I have to say is like

you know buy the book

but you know

whatever it is that you know you're

you're looking for I'm sure um

you'll find it in some way in these stories

or you'll find it for someone else

yeah I

I definitely second that it's a

yeah it

it it is

everybody needs help um

learning how to set and enforce boundaries

and respect boundaries in a healthy way and

and this this book is a really great way to

to help you yeah

I really

I really uh

yeah so and

and the links to all of these things uh

are in the show notes to this episode

Tiffany thank you so much for uh

for just opening up your world to this

I uh

it's it's a tough conversation to have in a lot of ways

and you make it easy and I really appreciate you yeah

I'm so I'm so glad that I make it easy

I try to you know

I'm I'm just honestly

I'm just like a high school

you know teacher still trying to be like

as cool as she can

to each and every person that she meets

so that they gain like

whatever knowledge I'm trying to

you know approach with them

so sometimes that comes off as like corny

but no matter what I always try

to make sure like people know

like even with what you were bringing up right

like the you know some of those were like sticky topics

but I'm I'm actually I'm very open um

to always discussing the sticky topics because if we

if we don't who

who's going to or who's gonna be thinking about that

and it's never prescriptive for me

it's like you know

have your own thoughts and

and work through them on your own

I'm not gonna tell you what to do or what to think yeah

I love it

what's every thanks again to everybody listening

thank you for listening to raising Men

you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino