therapy is much more accessible

than you would ever imagine

in the past right

and many of those things that happen online

are free to the public

that is so interesting because when I think of therapy

I think of it being a one on one

you know I'm

I'm paying a therapist

like hundreds of dollars an hour to

to have a dialogue right

but what you're saying is no

no no

the benefits of therapy can

aren't restricted

hi and welcome back to raising men

our guest today Doctor Gloria Vanderhorst

has spent decades

working at the very heart of the issues

surrounding raising men

she started her practice with preschool boys

who are often mislabeled as hyperactive or problematic

and that's something that

that strikes very dear to my heart

because I was one of those boys

what she discovered changed the course of her career

so let's get into it

Dr Vanderhorst Gloria

welcome to thank you

I am glad to be here

and this is a hot topic it is

it is it's an honor to have you here

now let's

let's talk a little bit you know

what is the

emotional desert that so many boys grow up in

and how does that come about

it comes about through unintentional interactions

with a male infant

the surprising thing about boys

is that you

were born with a broader range of emotional expression

than girls

interesting

you have a broader range of emotional expression

can go higher on the positive end

they have more emotional acceptance

more emotional interest on the positive end

the same thing is true on the negative end

all right they can go lower

deeper and they are born with this capability

at the very beginning

they have a much broader range of emotional expression

but by and large

they interact with females at this point

mother nannies right

that's changing

because there are many more men at this point

staying home to raise their children

than there were in the past

but still the majority

and I think if we tracked those infants

we'd see something dramatically different

in their emotional capability

that by yeah

and I can imagine that the work from home phenomenon is

also uh

contributing positively to that

I I mean I

I am not a stay at home dad

by any stretch the imagination

but I walk my boy to school every day I am

I spend a lot of time around him that I wouldn't spend

right and and that's fabulous

because you will have a different interaction with him

than a female will have

I'll give you a really good example uh

basically about my own granddaughter

she had a male teacher in kindergarten

wow and they were doing um

um

just playing with paints right

finger painting

so everybody had a piece of paper

and all these different colors

that they could dip their fingers into

so she's playing and making

there's colors on the page

and then she moves on to the table

right

sure then she moves down the table leg

yeah right

and the male teacher

I'm convinced if she had a female teacher

she would have been told to stay on the page

the male teacher took his phone out

and just recorded the whole thing

wow he just let her go

any place she wanted to go with those colors

so

there is a huge difference in the emotional reactivity

of men and women

and it shows up at the infant level

boys are much more expressive

and I think mothers don't do this intentionally

mother's range of emotional expression is narrower

so when the boy gets more intense

mother's reaction even if it's subtle right

even if she just backs up a little bit

or frowns a little bit

or make some kind of gesture that goes hey

I don't get it

I don't know why you're getting so intense yeah

infants are emotionally brilliant

it's their only survival mechanism

so they read the room perfectly

so if mother is giving me negative feedback

as a little infant boy

I'm gonna narrow that range

I Learned immediately oops

that wasn't popular that's not safe

and so I'm gonna narrow the range of expression

boys do that in infancy

and then they start to walk and boy

do we go after them emotionally

I tell people go to a playground

watch the interaction between parents and a little girl

parents and a little boy right

falls off the slide

skins her knee runs up to mom or dad

she gets picked up

and asked what happened

little boy

exactly the same injury runs up to mom and dad

he gets asked what happened

if he gives a good enough response

he'll get picked up and receive comfort

but the majority of the time he'll just be

you know hey

go go

go back you're okay yeah right

it's alright just a little scrape

that is a huge

yeah cause they're

they're seeking that connection right

and and so can we just I can see how

this expanded range emotionally

early as a baby can actually yield a

situation

where the correction happens so early and so often

whereas with a girl her narrower range of emotions

right ends up not getting corrected at all

so what result

what that results in is as they get older

they have a much narrower band because they've been

they've been corrected so often

whereas the girls end up with a wider band

because they weren't corrected as much

that's that's really fascinating

right on target and what's

and I'm I'm connecting that back to my own experience

I have a boy

a six year old boy and a three year old girl

and it is absolutely the case

our boy is very deeply feeling

very emotionally connected

if anybody is upset around him

he feels it uh huh

and um

and we've I've just always thought that oh

well that's just the way he is

he's no that's his natural talent as a male

yeah that's his natural talent as a male

this has caused him

as he gets into the real world

as he gets into school he kind of got mislabeled

right as

as problematic and

and it was especially in in pre kindergarten

as he's trying to figure out

how to work with other kids

in the culture and in school

it it became a problem

what what

what are those early experiences

about that reveal about how culture

how our culture misunderstands boys

well our culture shames boys

alright and then think about that

just as the emotional load that a male carries

yeah we do shame boys they're not supposed to cry right

they're not supposed to have any sense of tenderness

right so your son

you have a second child

right

and it's natural for the older child to be interested

to be curious

to want to make connection to show care and concern

we're gonna honor that

if it's coming from an older girl

but when it's coming from an older boy

parents are gonna go hmm hmm

right they're gonna back away from it um

they might enjoy it for a brief period of time

but the culture that we live in tells us that boys are

to narrow their emotional expression

and we like them to be assertive

aggressive but not tender connected

not lovingly alright not softly connected

we rob them of that capability

and we do it intentionally

so I mean I imagine you think that's a bad thing

why is that a bad thing my

my tone of voice can tell you that I

that I definitely think it's a handicap

I I get I get the function of it alright

if you go back in in time let you know

we'll put you back into caveman time alright

I want the guy to be brave aggressive

pick his spear up go out

not have any sense of

trepidation

I want him completely cut off from the negative end

of the feeling continuum alright

I want him to be bold

because I need him so that I can be fed

maybe a little stupid yeah

maybe a little stupid

but I need him right to go kill something yeah

so that I can be fed

the kids in the cave can be fed and

and we've you know

done this for centuries upon centuries

uh huh I don't think it continues to be adaptive

right I think we're yeah

I talked about that can expand

yeah I like to talk about the the the two brains right

we have the what I call the Conan the barbarian brain

which is that brain that you're

you know

the one that can go out and kill the food right

and

and react it instantaneously with violence if needed

and on all of those sorts of things

and then there's the Sherlock Holmes brain

which is the one that you know

allows us to think and learn and improve over time

and all of that stuff and we have abstracted our

our society and culture

has abstracted out the need for the Conan

the barbarian brain except

you know for certain professions and that sort of thing

and so that means that if

boys are particularly good at dropping into that cone

in the barbarian brain right

and it's harder to stay in the in the

in the Sherlock Holmes brain um

but that means that unless you happen to be in

in a profession where you absolutely need that um

it's maladaptive and it is maladaptive right

so and so we rob boys of that capability right

we keep them in the Conan barbarian brain peace

and then we expect them to grow up

to have intimate relationships with the opposite sex

or with the same sex

but we expect them to have emotional relationships

that's not possible

right right

that's difficult that's stressful

because they don't access the full range of emotions

they access irritation they access aggression

all right but they don't access tenderness

about feeling injured emotionally

or a promotion that they thought that they deserved

they come home angry about that right

uh what can I do with that

uh all I wanna do with that is tamp it down

yeah right

I don't want this guy getting angry

and belligerent and aggressive

alright you can't access the fear that gosh

I may never get this promotion or this assignment

that I think I'd be great relationships

so we have developed the

opposite of what we want for couple relationships

we've made it impossible

feeling states

and actually be heard

yeah about those injuries

and I mean even

even at that level so I

let's imagine I

I don't get a promotion I think I deserve

I come home angry about that

my anger is not gonna do any good right

it doesn't anger does not solve any problems

in our modern culture right

what's the secondary feeling

the anger is the escape from that

and so what you want is you wanna find out well

what's the primary feeling that that guy is having

what's my anger trying to tell me right

and then now and then what do I do about it long term

how do I make sure that I

how do I do a better job at promoting myself

if that's the issue with whatever yeah

and if all I do is get angry and

and talk about how mean my boss is

and how he doesn't see me well

that doesn't it's not gonna get me anywhere no

no that's not gonna get you the next advance

you know

I I understand a lot of your career has kind of

it starts with looking at children and then it

it kind of expands into their fathers

who end up in therapy because of their sons

that's right so yeah

what do you what do you see as the common

emotional wounds that you see in

in these men as a result of this kind of thing

well the common thread for men is

that they never get legitimized for feeling

they can't express those so they can express irritation

they can express anger I mean

the reason of the divorce rate is 50% and 0

the stats will tell you that

the divorce rate has declined

that's not true

the reason it's declined

is that people are not getting officially married

anymore they're not going to the courthouse

and so signing the paper

that makes it a record for the government

and so there are divorces are still happening

people are splitting up at about the same rate

that they always have

but it just doesn't show up in their records

and our jails are full of men

oh man yeah that's

that a huge

and problem solve

about what are the injuries that they're experiencing

in relationship at work

and dynamics with friends

men don't disclose to men

that's the other thing

it happens all right men

part of my motivation even starting this podcast

was a realization that my wife had

six or seven people that she

that knew every detail of our lives

and she shared just every tiny little thing

and every incremental thing that she needed to share

was was a tiny little effort for her

whereas I had a friend come to me and tell me

that after 20 years he's getting a divorce

and about all the problems that

that he had been experiencing over the last year

that were that were un

unfixable right

and we hadn't spoken about it in 20 years

we hadn't spoken about any of the problems

in either of our relationships

and I hadn't shared with him

and he hadn't shared with me

and this is my best friend yeah

from middle school right yeah

and think of how long you've known that guy right yeah

I've known that guy for maybe

almost longer than anybody else in my life yeah

and yet when I found out he was getting divorced

he told me earlier than a lot of other people but but

but 10 years too late right yeah

but that's the tradition all right

we raise men to function in that way

not to disclose any

you can brag about your successes right

but you can't have emotional needs

yeah what do you think

I mean for people who might be resistant to that

who might argue that no that's what masculinity is

and masculinity is strength and and all of that stuff

what what is their argument

OK

I've had that that they will lose their assertiveness

I can imagine with people right

the truth of the matter is

that the person who's arguing that

their power their sense of being invigorated

it's not true

you're gonna add to that

you'll have a stronger sense of how to express a need

how to develop intimacy with both men and women

that is not sexual

not every piece of intimacy is sexual

but I think that's the fear right

if I'm a guy

and I access feeling states that are intimate and

and deep for me and then I share them with another guy

my fear is that's gonna roll into sexual intimacy

and it's not gonna roll into sexual intimacy

unless you wanted to go there

yeah in which case good

you just figured something else about yourself that

that is right that is good right

yeah that's interesting

now

I think this is a good segue to talk about your book

you've written a book called Read Reflect respond

the 3 R's of growth and change tell me about that

yes this is a journal book

this is a book for everyone

men and women and it is different in this way

each essay is stimulating

it will tap into pieces of your history

it'll tap into feelings in the present

it'll bring up memories maybe that you have had hidden

and everything is recorded in your brain

your brain's wonderful

it stores absolutely everything

you have memories even before you were born

the last trimester in utero

you have memories so those are up there

you have memories from the day that you were born

all of those are up there

they can all be accessed and so

this book has a series of essays

that can tap into those early pieces of history

but it's different in that the facing page

where you can respond to the essay

is a blank piece of paper

it has a couple of stimulating questions on it

but it's blank for a very good reason

because you store memories in terms of pictures

and in terms of actions and also in terms of language

but most of the time

journal books only ask you to tap into language

you know

language written language doesn't start until what

you go to school first grade six seven yeah

five or six yeah

it's old right

I gotta tell you you got a lot of memories before that

7 when you add language to your brain

you just said 6 7 and my my kid is gonna go crazy

hahaha

but you

in terms of visual memory and kinesthetic memory

which is action

here's the facing but here's the critical piece

here's an essay and here's the blank page

you can scribble draw

you can use intensity

um and the essays have very interesting titles

here's one are you your own con artist

think about that well

that's a that's a really really powerful statement

I it makes me want to do it yeah

it it's fabulous

and so it generates

it enables you to tap into early pieces of history

that have been hidden and they influence you

right right now

each one of us

is being influenced by some early piece of history

that we're not exactly aware of

but if we take time to engage in reflection

and let our brain access all of those pictures

along with the words we're going to be able to do

a deeper and a more healing experience will happen

it's guaranteed because that information is there

and it jumps into the present when you least expect it

sure and

and if you don't do it on purpose

it'll happen accidentally in ways that are usually bad

right that's absolutely right

are

you know I

I one of the things that I've seen happen

and I I mean I

I think I've experienced this in myself somewhat

and I've definitely seen it amongst other people

is as you start to

um as you start to access these old memories

and these old stimuli mm hmm

um

the results can be very strong

and the and the intention is to say okay

now I understand why I react in this way

right to this thing

you know why

I get so mad

when my wife doesn't replace the toilet paper roll

like that should be a minor thing

and yet and yet it turns into this enormous thing

and now I understand why the next step is then OK

and I can I can now defeat that thing

but one of the next steps that can happen is

oh now

I can blame that thing that happened

back when I was 5 years old

for my emotional outburst

and justify it

and those are the two possible things and

and sometimes people go to that other place which

you know what how do you keep from doing that

alright that's one of the advantages of therapy

is that if you're the guy

you have to have someone challenge you

uh huh all right

because the only reason that you'll hold on to

to the justification is fear

that if I really look closely at my emotional needs

that they will not be filled

and then I really will be crushed

then I'll really be in trouble

because it's like not going to the doctor

that's right it's exactly like that

and that's so common in men

men do not take care of themselves out of fear

that's why they die younger

that's why they have more diabetes

that's why they have more heart problems

that's why they're more overweight

it's fear

you know I think in my own personal

experience therapy has been so helpful in so many ways

and yet therapy really isn't accessible to everybody

either because of cost or cognitive dissonance

or there aren't enough therapists in the area or

or any of those things but

and it seems to me like your

book is a way to help bridge that gap

and I would also challenge

it's like the it's like an introduction

if you will right

if I'm able to respond to these things on to the essays

if I'm able to get insights

into some of my early history

then I'm more open to exploring myself

but I'm gonna challenge you about the accessibility

of therapy

because there are changes taking place

internal family systems

which is a marvelous process for understanding yourself

is opening up to the public

right and having workshops

having presentations

having online services provided

having group experiences

therapy is much more accessible

than you would ever imagine

in the past right

and many of those things that happen online are free

to the public

that's so interesting because when I think of therapy

I think of it being a one on one you know

I'm yeah and I think that

I'm paying a therapist

like hundreds of dollars an hour to

to have a dialogue right

but what you're saying is no no

no the benefits of therapy can

aren't restricted to just that one on one

that might be you know

that's kind of that's a fabulous way to grow right

because yeah I mean

it's great fine if you can afford it right

and um

but there are you can also get it pro Bono

I will put in a plug for pro Bono services yeah

yeah yeah

I it's more accessible

um

month after month after month

year after year the availability

of being able to tap in to therapeutic resources

is increasing over time and

and people need to know that

so that they can take advantage of that

yeah and I think that

that group setting also helps with another

real deficiency in the masculine experience

which is lack of community

uh huh and

and so

I can kind of kill two birds with one stone there

can't I that's right

you absolutely can yeah

yeah it's interesting

I've had I've run men's groups before

mm hmm and

and you get a group of men

in a room together

and the first thing they must do is they must posture

yes with each other right

absolutely

yeah we're playing the status game right

that's right yeah

that's right

and and so that

for that at the beginning of a group experience

if it's all male

um women do some posturing

but usually they're really ready to dive into emotion

men need to test out is this going to be a safe place

yeah right

can I bring my success into the room

and get acknowledged and valued

and if I can bring my success into the room

and get valued

then I can take the risk of bringing my need

bringing my sorrow bringing my worry into the room

and it's incredible to watch a group of men

actually support each other

in terms of disclosure with each other

and create safety for each other

and that's happening all over the United States

there are more men groups

um there are retreats that are offered for men

specifically

just to take that deeper dive into who are you

what's your history

what's the emotions that you've experienced

and packed away or denied

and it's

you can do a search online and find those organizations

yeah and we'll put some

we'll put some links in the show notes

but you've touched on something that I really want to

drill into for a moment

for men to experience the kind of emotional safety

that is required in order to open up in this context

there's almost a ritual that has to take place

yeah absolutely

and women don't have that

they do not they don't have to go through that process

so my wife

experiences emotional safety differently than I do

it's almost like

an inverse of walking down the street at night right

I can walk down the street at night

and I don't have to worry about being physically

attacked right

and my wife can open up with her feelings

with her friends

and not have to worry about being emotionally attacked

but it's the inverse for me

I don't have that experience

I have to I

I

that I would need to posture and and

and make it clear oh no no

I am a successful guy that has his shit together

but right

you know I mean

right then I I drive this kind of car

yeah here's my

here's my car key and my golf handicap is this and

and uh

and I love this kind of giant dog

a giant dog yeah

who has all these great tricks

yeah I'm

I'm with you I'm with you 100%

that is that's fascinating

it's never actually occurred to me that

that that parallel there especially parents of boys

is as inaccessible to me right away

as physical safety is to her

mm hmm yeah

absolutely that's a really

really interesting distinction

mm hmm now Timmy

for parents listening especially parents of boys

what are the first practical steps that

that we can take to help raise emotionally healthy boys

yeah the first thing that I encourage parents to do

is to reflect on your early interactions with that boy

go back in time be transparent be honest with yourself

alright what happened inside of you

both mother and father

when your little boy cried

right

figure that out and at what point in time

in the development of that boy

did you decide to treat crying

as something that you didn't like

we're afraid of wanted to discourage wanted to diminish

you owe your son an apology

yeah right

yeah you need to be transparent

I tell this story about a

who had a little boy same age as my little girl

and my daughter took something

favorite toy from the guy

wouldn't hand it back so he heads over to his parents

and his father whacks him in the chest

lands him on his butt and tells him to stop crying

now that's insane

right legitimately

his favorite toy has been taken away from him

he has every right

to receive comfort

to be given some strategies on how to go back

and get it away from her

right he needed help and support

instead he got aggression and shame

that happens constantly for boys

yeah

it's like we think that we need to train them to not be

to not be babies not be babies

because if we let them be babies now

he's gonna be a baby

and he's not gonna be able to handle it

when a

when a girl breaks up with him or whatever it is

or whatever and that's actually not true

it's it's

it's it's actually the reverse

training them not to be babies when they're 3

you're building somebody brittle

and they come across as strong

but then when they really get hit hard

they fall apart that's right

they can't

as opposed to building somebody resilient who right

experience emotion and not let it overwhelm them

it is more prominent among men than women

extremely more prominent it's terrifying

that's that's wildly 80% prominent

even if

in the culture

so it's criminal that we

are not paying closer attention to

allowing acceptance of the full range of emotions

in our infants toddlers

preschoolers that's the target

that's the place it has to start

that's a beautiful sentiment

and I I is it happening or or is it

it it actually moving in the right direction

it it actually is happening um

the sociological research will show you that

teenage boys for example

in this day and age have more access to their emotions

than their fathers did

so it is happening yeah

but at the same time

there's this layer for both males and females

of discouraging emotional expression

so it's complicated because of the use of cell phones

is that right yeah

tell me about that well

you will find two teenagers sitting next to each other

and they're both focused on their cell phone

and they're typing

all right and then if you ask who are they talking to

who they communicating with

is the person sitting next to them

yeah right

they're talking to each other

so they're missing facial expression

they're missing body posture

they're missing tone of voice

of communication is all of those things

all right

so they're reducing the effectiveness of communication

and they're adding uncertainty to their messages

because if I call you a jerk

right I don't know if you're a jerk

you're a jerk sure right

I don't know what it is yeah

yeah that's 100% right

and I mean

I I'm not at the age my

my son isn't at the age he's he but I mean

he's six years old and he's already asking me for

for a phone

and he wants to spend all his time on YouTube

when he finds out about Instagram and TikTok and

and right Facebook

he's maybe not Facebook because the

the Youngs that's not cool anymore right

but I I'm terrified of it uh

I yeah if I could restrict his ability

to access social media of any form

until he's 18 years old I'll do it yeah

or 21 the longer the better

I think right that

we are going to realize at some point

that we are doing

the largest uncontrolled experiment in the history

on our young

children with yeah

we are we're absolutely

it is a huge experiment

and because of the way that we're constructed

it's an experiment that's not gonna turn out well

I I

I believe in the in a goodness of humanity

and I do think the overall arc of history bends

but I don't see how this one resolves well by the way

yeah I don't think it will resolve well

there's nothing I can do about it I mean

there's nothing I can do to change

that arc or to do anything about social media

so what I'm focused on

and partly the reason that I even have this platform

is I wanna know what I can do tactically

uh huh I wanna know

you know what are the day in

how do I talk to my kid about having a phone

and social media and say yeah

this is why we're not doing it and we're gonna delay

and these are the these are the dangers

so that he has a chance

of being able to navigate this culture when he grows up

in a way that helps him succeed

well it isn't just setting the limit

all right we do have to set limits

yeah right

we we should not be giving a 4 year old a phone

right and we are

we're giving four year olds the phone right

and they have little pictures on them

so that you can dial mom or dad

or grandma or so

yeah we're starting at that

that age but it isn't just limiting access

we have to be intentional about providing engagement

for that child so

the wall behind you tells me that you are intentional

about providing engagement

all right

it took time for your kids to make those things

and they weren't on media in order to create them

alright

in front of them and crayons or paints or

colored pencils they had access to being creative

and you obviously are encouraging that

because the wall is full

right and think things are overlapping and

we have to be intentional about the type of activity

that our children engage in

and we have to be thoughtful

we have to plan ahead

asking for a cell phone

I'm not gonna provide a cell phone

but what am I gonna do

feels like he belongs

right because he's asking for a cell phone

probably because someone in his class

has a cell phone to talk about

has some device and he wants to fit in and belong

so now you have the opportunity to

to plan to figure out how to meet that need

for a sense of belonging and connection

I don't need such an important point here

and I really wanna I really wanna just underscore it

I can shut down the behavior if I wanted to at least 13

no we don't have cell phones

you're not when and

and he'll ask me what

at what age can I have a cell phone

and I go I don't know man

maybe it's 15 or 17

like it's a long way off and believe me

he's counting the days until right

so that he can start he started a calendar

absolutely no question

what I'm not doing

if I do that is addressing the underlying need

and I have an opportunity here

he comes to me yeah

for asking for me for a cell phone

he he's asked me at what age can I get a cell phone

I can just answer the question

why do you want a cell phone so bad

and I can engage him in a discussion

and figure out what the root

right

and then I can go ahead and address that root cause now

and I can train him that you can meet your needs

uh huh in ways

even if you think that the thing to meet your needs is

a you can meet it in another way

and that's just as satisfying right

right and in fact

it's more satisfying yeah

we had this interesting I had this really

really interesting thing that happened with my boy

yesterday and we uh so we were getting ready

to go to and I

I don't normally succeed like this

but we were getting ready to go to a

a lunch a breakfast with Santa

at noon and it was getting towards the time

that we had to leave

and we were a little bit pressed for time

and it was a nice event

so I needed the boy to wear a nice shirt

uh huh he spent 10 minutes

just absolutely freaking out

about the fact that he had to wear a nice shirt

and he and I was

I was stressed cause I was trying to get ready in time

and when I finally had the time

I sat him down I said

what is why is this so distressing to you

uh huh and

and he said I

I mean I just feel

I feel weird when I'm wearing a nice shirt

and I said listen

we're going to this event

everybody's gonna be dressed up

and I promise you

if you're the only one who's not dressed up

that will feel weird

yes and by the way

here's all the great stuff about this event

one of his favorite things in the entire world is

buffets mm hmm

he's a big kid he's hungry all the time

he loves buffets plus he can you know

make a pancake with candy on it

that's right and so I said

we're going to this lunch

and there's gonna be a buffet there

and he lights up and I said

I want you to enjoy this lunch as much as you can

and I promise you that if you wear a nice shirt

you're gonna enjoy it more

uh huh and you're great and and you will feel left out

and I was able to connect it back just luckily

uh huh to this sense this

he felt like he was gonna feel left out

he was wearing too nice of a shirt

and it was gonna be the opposite

and I ended up being right and he had an amazing time

it actually he had spent 10 minutes freaking

out about the shirt thing

and it flipped the switch

uh huh it flipped the switch for him

that's fabulous yeah

and I

I actually didn't put that together until just now that

I I accidentally

haphazardly addressed the root cause of why

that he was feeling insecure about wearing this shirt

and and then it it changes it it just absolutely goes

yes so his the shirt the cellphone

he's sending you very powerful messages

about his need to feel included

to feel like he belongs

with everybody else so

you can also take a deeper dive into that

because clearly he's saying this is a theme

this is a powerful theme I want to belong

I want to be included

and I'm questioning it all the time

it's kind of coming up in my head

do I fit do I fit

yeah and and I mean

of of course we all feel this way and I I

I so naturally they will feel that way but

but both my kids are unusually large

and so I mean

literally he's head and shoulders

taller than every other kid in his class

and the girls the same way

and she yeah

and she has other kids

like remarking to her about her height and her weight

and she feels weird because she's so tall

you know we're looking for ways of

of getting them into environments like sports

where their size is an asset

and they can feel pride about it

as opposed to as opposed to what happens

and so it's you know

that's another part of the challenge is yeah

helping them to build friendships

yeah right

one on one relationships

with one or two kids in their class

so that they feel like

have a sense of belonging

uh is powerful

yeah now

I appreciate that now

I always like to finish up these conversations

by asking um

the same kind of question

I'll put you on the spot a little bit

okay um

I like I'm

I'm like to collect operating principles about

about raising young men okay

what is one good operating principle that you uh

that you might think of to uh

to help parents who were raising boys

yes I would encourage

to take time with their boy

to expand his feeling vocabulary

and you can go to my website

and get a list of feelings

that you can download it's four pages

4 3 pages I guess and four columns of feelings

the truth is we can all identify what we're feeling

we just can't produce it

that list of feelings

what you are feeling will just jump off the page

that increases your vocabulary alright

so now I own that feeling

and I couldn't produce it before

before I could produce you know

I'm feeling bad I'm feeling hurt

but now I have all these other words for it

I can produce much more elaborate descriptions

of my feelings it's like learning a language

mm hmm it is

it's definitely learning a language yeah

well so I

I I commit to you now

I'm gonna print that out

and put it on the wall downstairs yeah

good I tell people print print it out

put one in the kitchen

one in the living room or where the television is

and one in the bedroom so you have easy access

and honestly it's miraculous right

you can identify what you're feeling just

if you scan the words

but you can't drag it out of yourself

yeah I'll put it next to

so we have this bell um

and the bell has a sign

a little sticker on it that says need love

and so when we're

when any of us are feeling like we need love

but are having trouble expressing that

that's a great tool

and so we'll put the list right next to the bell

perfect

I love that well

Gloria thank you so much for

you're welcome bringing such depth and compassion

and clarity to this conversation

I just uh

just listening to your voice makes me feel uh um

more centered and more powerful

and I really really

appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion

with you for everybody listening

you can follow Gloria's writing her weekly blog

her resources and and a link to her book

through the links in the show notes

and I encourage you to absolutely dive into her content

especially if you're a parent

wanting to raise boys with emotional courage

or access that stuff yourself

thank you for joining us today

thank you I've enjoyed it

it's a great conversation

until next time remember you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino