was if you can feel your own wounds

then you will not wound your own children

you know we have kind of a superpower men do

which is to ignore the wound and just grit through it

right and that's necessary right

you're in the foxhole and you actually

this is a story that you

that you specifically talk about in the book

you're in the foxhole

and people are getting shot all around you

and you have I mean

that's horrific

but you have to shut it out and you have to do the job

welcome back to raising men

in our last conversation

with world renowned psychologist

Steve Bidulph we explored why boys

are falling behind in a system that often

misunderstands their biology

but today

we're gonna go deeper into the subject of masculinity

itself

we're gonna shift the lens from the sun to the Father

Steve's seminal work The New Manhood

has reached millions

because it addresses the quiet crisis that

inside men themselves

the legacy of the father wound and the struggle

for authentic male friendship

and the search for purpose

Steve welcome back to raising men

hi Sean

great to be with you and

and hello to everyone who's watching or listening

and especially if young guys

teenagers even or or guys in their 20s are

are listening to today a special welcome to you

we really wanna give you some

some things so because

so that your generation can

can be a better whole better

a generation of men and

and so you're especially welcome and

but Sean

thanks so much for for

for talking to me again on your show

thank you absolutely

I am so excited to dive into this material and and and

and really outline the potential for a healthy

productive and joyful form of masculinity

now you start off the book

with a message of hope and change

now when this was written

uh

it must have seemed that we've really turned a corner

in that respect but in the last almost decade

do you think things have gotten better

or have they gotten worse

oh it's like

I have to use a metaphor Shawn

I love metaphors you know me

I love metaphors yeah'cause it's both

it's getting better and worse

I'm I'm a kayaker

and I my most fun thing to do

day to day is to go out on the river with my kayak

anyone who does canoeing or anything who's

who's watching um

there's a time when you're just at the mouth of a river

where it goes into the sea

where the tide is coming in

but it's also going out

and and

and it's and it's very tricky because there's

there's currents running both ways

yeah and it's a

and you have to really watch out

that you don't get drowned

I think that's what we're living in now

is that there's

yeah it

it works really for for me

that the cause you know

there's no doubt we're living in a terrible

people being murdered in the streets

by our own government and and

and all kinds of crisis coming to a head

but there's these wonderful people standing up to that

and if we're talking about guys

there are guys who are you know

looking out for their neighbours and

and um

protecting people delivering food to people

who can't come out of their houses

and so it's the best of times

it's the worst of times and

and so that's why I'm really happy to talk to you

Shawn because I think

if we can just turn up the dial on healthy masculinity

we can we can turn the tide and um

and get this rush of of confidence into the good men

so that they stand up and drive the bad men

you know out of

out of the house yeah

the bad men tend to be more noisy

don't they and they tend to be

they tend to kind of suck the air out of the room

but yeah

you know it's

the good men have a choice

have a choice whether to let that happen or not

yeah yeah

and I think what we

talking about today is how we fix ourselves um

so that we can do that and

you have this amazing metaphor in the beginning of the

of the book that really spoke to me and

and it was this notion

um of manhood and masculinity as a river

tell us tell

tell us a little bit more about that

yeah well

it's a it's a little bit like

we talked about in the earlier podcast that we did that

that um

we're not like birds that

you know

a bird is born and it knows to fly south in the winter

build a nest and and

and um

human beings are are programmed for flexibility

so we can live in a cave or we can live in a

in a a moon

a moon ship um

rocket ship and

and we have to be flexible

and so the way we designed is we

everything we have was Learned

um we got these primary things

but then everything else is Learned on top

and so so in order to be a good man

you have to be around good men and see

and see them in in a deep

exposed way and what happened in our culture was that

for thousands of years

boys and men were together all the time

and so we we

we lived in small groups

and we spent the whole day walking along river banks

together and

and with the men and the women and the kids

all together talking and hanging out

and in those days we used to feed ourselves

and clothe ourselves in two hours a day

that's that's

you know the hunter gatherer lifestyle was very

very cruisy and we kind of don't realize that

you know that they were the masters of their world

they gardened the earth

and they did that because of the skills they passed on

and so some of those skills were gendered

and some of them were just human skills

but a boy growing up would have had

hours and hours a day of male teaching

um and he stepped into a healthy kind of manhood

with very strong ethics about protecting the earth

and protecting living things around him and

and caring for the women and children

and when the industrial era

came along

the men were ripped out from family life

and even from community life

they were down mines in my grandfather's generation

down the mines digging the coal

working in the factories they hardly saw their children

yeah and um

and so when we say masculinity is a river

um you gotta receive masculinity um

and then you can flow it on to your

to your children it's

it's not something that's in

like some kind of inborn quality

and so if you know that it's a relief

the men I work with just so relieved

I thought there was something missing in me um

deep there that wasn't there

but no we didn't get the software and

and so that's what we're trying to put back

when I wrote manhood and when I wrote Raising Boys and

and

here's how I think you do masculinity and

and listening to men and talking to men

it's a I'm

I'm that's bit of a um

torrent of words there Sean

but is that making sense is that

adding up yeah

it makes perfect sense and I think that

you know if you look at that

if you look at the metaphor in that sense

if you look at it that

with that metaphor what you

what you can imagine is I don't know

going back a ways you had

for the most part you were surrounded

a boy was surrounded by good men for the most part

and he had a lot of masculinity flowing into him

so he had a lot that could flow out as well

and then that

because of the Industrial Revolution

as you say that became a trickle

and and then that trickle became

I don't know maybe infected or polluted by

I just cut off Heather yeah

sorry

no no

no that yeah

it it became yeah

yeah polluted by

by kind of very a very shallow vision

of masculinity that we get from movies and

and television and popular culture

right and I would argue that's

that was the state of masculinity

at the time you wrote the book

and now that trend there was has

has just gotten worse because of social media

that thing that polluted the

the pollution has become a morass

a kind of a very toxic morass really

of the water is not flowing at all anymore

it is just stagnant and it is it

it is it is unmoving because now

whereas

the vision of masculinity that we got from TV

and movies was a trickle

now

the vision that we get from the social media algorithms

and what drives clicks and

you know

what we end up seeing on Instagram or TikTok or YouTube

or whatever that is

even that that's the trickle of a trickle

it is very very very shallow

do you agree

yes I

I do but I think I

I'd like to try and make this relatable for the men

in a sort of more concrete way

um now that we've got the picture

um yes

definitely that that um

that what happened was that when we didn't

when we didn't when the men were pulled out of

you know

the lives of of families

um

there's this thing I I heard once and I it's

it's something that I put into my

my live shows

when I was doing live talks over the last 30 years

it was

one of those things that made the room go absolutely

silent um

and there's a there's an audience

just a very slight rustling sort of sound to it

it's interesting you have 500 people in a room

and it kind of rustles just gently

they're paying attention

but then there's this silence that just goes whoomp

and you know you've hit something that's

that people are diving inside with

is that every boy that ever lived

every boy ever has a dream dad

inside him and I see a smile on your face Sean

as I say that that that

that the boy has

this is what I'd like my dad to be like

you know my dream dad would do these

kind of things with me and would treat me in this way

and would be this kind of man in the world

so they have a dream dad

that they hope their real dad will rise to

or will measure up to that makes sense

and so um

so there's there's the boy now

the next part of it is that every dad

somewhere deep inside has a dream son

you know

first that he learns that he's gotta have a boy

he can't help it it doesn't matter how

you know politically correct or

whatever a condition on

on that somewhere inside him this

this is my son this what I want my you know

my son's gonna be like this and

is that there's the boy with the dream dad

and there's the dad with the dream son

and guess what

in this world they never ever match

no if in a you you wanted a you know

a NFL footballer and you

and you get a kid who wants to do ballet right

you know you wanted um

you know you wanted a

a fisherman and you get a plumber um

you wanted a scientist

and you get a kid that just likes to

to work in the shop and and

and it's a it's a jarring kind of thing and

and in the old days

when we walked along riverbanks all day

and we sat around campfires all night

that was okay

because you had time to find who your son really was

and to get to know him and get to love him

and because what when

what we would say to the

to the room when I used to talk about this was

it's good for you

it's absolute nightmare to get your dream

getting your ego fantasy of a kid in a real shape um

is a disaster badge to be worn by their parents that

you know and um

cause no kid is supposed to be

the ego badge to be worn by their parents that

that's a catastrophic outcome

and we've seen the results of that

in the sporting world and and

and all over the place um

that what you got you know

and and and

and I know how heavy this is

you know

that there are people watching listening who have

you know

and kids who have brain tumors and

and kids who struggle with

in so many are so far from what they expected to have

this is heavy duty stuff all the same

what you got is better for you

than what you would have made up for yourself

and and so that's the

that's the journey that's that that that's an eternal

a timeless journey of of fathers and

and kids is meeting them as a person

and when we stopped having

you know

when when I wrote manhood the average father spent

six minutes a day talking to his children

the studies on father time

it's a whole field of study that

people in universities do

is called father time studies

um there's professors in that six minutes a day

and that isn't gonna

and what happens if you only got 6 minutes a day

is you don't find each other

it's like the gears in an old manual car

they just jar just you know dad and son just yeah

it's like you're not you're not pushing the clutch in

you're just jamming the gear

oh no you're just jamming yeah

yeah so

so that's a big spread there but this is this

this is what went wrong um

and and so the

and it Robert Bly put this first in in that I

my reading that it's the father wound um

that runs through the culture um

in the audiences that I used to speak

and I would have been 100

200 men in the room and I'd ask them

do you get along with your dad

you know you're here because

you know it'd be a day on fatherhood

you know for guys

whole room full of men

you're here'cause you wanna be a good dad

how do you get along with your own dad

and it's like

I've got a hand grenade out of my briefcase and

you know

kind of um

30% Sean 30% of the men in the room and they

they'd be the first to speak

and they would look

really pissed that I'd asked the question

um like what kind of question is that

you know um

30% of the guys in the room would say

I don't you know

I don't get along with my father

you know I don't speak to him

I wouldn't waste my time it's like they

bit it out you know I wouldn't waste my time with him

and so we put that on the board 30

you know

30% estranged from fathers and another 30 on the board

and that's men who say yeah

I I see my dad at the birthdays or Christmas or

that's great you see him that's

that's what that's fantastic yeah

what's it like when you see them

oh it's it's

it's always kind of prickly

you know you don't get in the door

he says something about your haircut or something

and it's on again

it's on again and the women can roll their eyes

you know like oh

it's on again you know

and so there's a relationship but it's

it's cactus yeah it's cactus I write the word cactus

I can long side that 30 um prickly

and I write another 30 on the board

and that's guys who are

they they go visit their dad in the old people's home

once a month

or they drive you know

they drive up to San Francisco to see them

once a month from San Diego and and

they're good sons you know

they show up um but when they're with them it's like

you know oh jeez you know

I can't wait to get back on the road and get home

you know it's and so I say now you're doing your

it's it's it and it's

it's the and I

I tease the audience to say it's a d word

starts with D what's the word

and they always get it straight away

it's it's duty duty yeah

you know sure they we

we they have a relationship

but it's a dutiful relationship

and so I say now you're doing your

you're doing your arithmetic now we've got hundred

hundred percent 30 30 and 30 what's what's left

we got 10 left um yeah

and 10% of guys in in your and my um

we're two different generations

but so both of our generations Sean

only 10% of guys would say I am close to my dad

when I talk to when I'm worried

he's the one I go to to get

you know

built back up again and and to lean

lean on and and feel nourished by um

and they and these guys

they're the ones who speak last and they

and they sort of say look

I've listened to all the other guys

I totally understand

where the other guys are coming from but

I you know

my old man is amazing you know

he's just the best dad you know

I couldn't design a better dad than he is

and I'm you know

I'm gonna so miss him when he's gone and

and they have tears in their eyes and

and so

and I I'll say to the group

you know I just want you to look at that

you know

and just notice what's happening in your heart as

as we've been doing this this is a disaster

but only one man in 10 is close to his dad and

and how can we how can we heal that wound

how can we how can we make sure

that this isn't gonna be the case with us

and our sons um

in 30 years time

and and that sets the tone for a real real resolve to

to father to be a hands on

open hearted dad and and make a a different generation

yeah yeah

I can see how that would

really motivate people to want to heal that wound

how do you do that I

well so

first of all what's the nature of the wound and

and or is it just different for everybody or

and then and then how do you go about

yeah well

if we take on board that

these guys who came back from World War 2

and came back from Vietnam and

and Afghanistan and and

brought so much damage into the picture and

and also if for all the many reasons

you know the economic catastrophes of the 20th century

and unemployment and relocation and

and the shutdown of manufacturing and so on what

what happened was

we had men who really struggled in the fathering role

and there were some very distinctive kinds of ways

for instance you had the the guy who was

you know the kind of father who

um you know

sat in his Jason recliner and

and gave orders and and

and he he tended to say things like

you know you

you live under my roof

if you live under my roof alright

yeah

you'll do what I say what I say goes and

and he got this picture of this

like 14 year old young kid thinking

you know I can't wait to get my own effing roof

yeah

I just just

I just want out of here um

and and then there's the

and then there's the dad who's just a carping critic

you know who's

he might even I mean he cares about his kids

but his way of showing it is

you know no

you're doing that wrong um

you know that's

that's you know

you're an idiot you know

if you don't you know and

and the endless put downs

destroying the kids self esteem and

and when young boys just hunger for their

for affirmation of their dad

and their uncles and their grandads

so just affirmation is what steps you into wanting to

be a better man um

and want to grow up um

but then there's the absent dad

Sean as well you know

like at the 40% in in your country and mine no

marriage didn't work and

but the consequence of that was the mum stuck around

and the dad cleared out um

and and so

or absent through work um

corporate man who who is just

just physically not there he

he's a comes in at 9:00 at night

he's just his

his eyes are just empty and and

and the worst um

that I come across a lot in my

in my therapy years is a dad who's

who literally you know

took his own life um

and um

and we we work a lot

lot of this with men's groups

cause a lot of men consider suicide at some stage and

and in in my country um

2,500 men kill themselves every year and

and my country has only very small

and my country is about as big as San Francisco

and its total population and so

because what a kid decides from that is that I

they don't decide that my dad had problems they decide

manhood doesn't work

and on a deeper level

I wasn't worth sticking around for

and so my dad

I didn't rate enough

that my dad stayed around yeah

and um

and for girls girls

mums mostly stick around and and

men kill themselves four times more often than

than women do and and

and women usually stay with the kids in the family and

and and so

girls get usually lots of teaching how to be a woman

and to believe themselves as a woman um

and so so the father wind

for people listening I want

just want to acknowledge that

that many people listening to this will have

just listening to what I'm talking about

will be feeling a great

a lot of things shifting in their heart

just listening right now

and to put our arms around you and to

and to say we we really see you and we

we know about what this is like and how

what a big deal this is and if

if you're feeling it and if you're aware of it

then you are on the road to healing

because the guys that

that shoot up a shopping centre or

or do harm in any shape or form

they're the ones who have just pushed this right down

they don't feel it they just

they just like walking logs of wood

um but if

if you're starting to feel the wound

then that wound is getting better

it's like a deer in the forest

when a deer is wounded it doesn't tough it out

a deer goes to the shadiest

coolest

dampest place in the forest and it licks the wound

and it waits and it waits for the wound to heal

and um

in human beings we

we share and we stand with each other through that time

and in immense groups that

that started from the manhood book

that's what would happen

the men would share their wounds and

and honor the the

those wounds and the depth of those wounds

and begin to heal and what we say

cause I'm cause fatherhood

was my main focus

this was if you can feel your own wounds

then you will not wound your own children

yeah does that make sense Shawn

yeah totally

it does yeah

and yeah

you know I think

I think that

you know we have kind of a superpower men do

which is to ignore the wound and just grit through it

right and

and that's necessary right

you're in the foxhole and you actually

this is a story that you

that you specifically talk about in the book

you're in the foxhole

and people are getting shot all around you

and you have I mean

that's horrific

but you have to shut it out and you have to do the job

and then

but you also need to be able to process it

and you talk about how

it gets kind of lodged in your limbic system and it's

and then you've got to work it through eventually

and if you don't then it's gonna erupt in yeah

a really

you're gonna take it out on your kids

and you're gonna take it out on your wife

you're gonna take it out on the rest of your society

and you're not going to fully realize your potential

as a man

no that's right

and I read a story um

last year

there's a book called what it's like to go to war and

by an American soldier called

um and this story really stayed with me

um and what it was

was that is that a lieutenant in

in Vietnam and they just finished a firefight with

with um

Vietnamese soldiers and and it was

and they driven off and and they've been

you know lot of shooting and and

and bloodshed

but now they were just time to clean up and

and be finishing up and make things safe and

he was walking around

making sure his men were okay and looking out of

to take you know

he's in charge of you know

two 300 guys in this scene and

and he went around a corner into a clearing

and there was something going on

that suddenly he just had this

like a bit of a chill about what was going on

and what I see most of his men were

were like 19 year olds they were conscripts

he was a regular soldier but they were

these were these were draft

drafted soldiers and something

the energy didn't feel right

and he got as he got closer

he saw what had happened was there were some the the

the bodies of some dead Vietnamese soldiers

of the Viet Cong on on the ground killed in the fight

and these young guys were

were had their bayonets out

and they was hacking off the ears

of the of the

of the dead people and and sticking them in the

in the mesh on their helmets and

and joking and throw them around and um really

you know grotesque situation

kind of laughing kind of hysterically and joking around

and he completely lost it with them

and he yelled at them and

and he and he said

I I've got you guys

the six of you

you're gonna bury these bodies properly in the ground

you dig you

these are these are human beings

who gave their lives for something

they believed in

they deserve better treatment than this

you bury them properly in the ground

and you don't leave here till you've done it

and he stormed off because he

you know he was just had to calm down himself

um

but when he came back Sean about 20 minutes later

they're just about finished

but some of them still doing the burying

he discovered he went closer to their faces

the young guys were weeping

they were sobbing with tears

because now

they were putting human bodies in graves

that they had killed

you know and that they previously

you know and what had happened

and it's a very male thing the

as a little pack of of 19 year olds

the way that they were dealing with the horror

um it's not that they were indifferent to it

but the way they were dealing with it was

by stupid things cutting ears off people

by mucking around joking around

you know doing stupid uh

things cutting ears off people

and now that was a that was a mask that those young men

but but that's the mask that young men do

when they carry out rapes

and when they carry out

some of the atrocities that are happening

in Gaza for example

with the if Israeli forces that we're reading about

this kind of nightmare

this kind of nightmare hysteria of

of killing that happens where it just becomes inhuman

yeah we're going the other direction on October 7th

same thing yeah

well that's right exactly yes

unleashing this violence yeah

and and so

the what I would suggest to you and to people listening

is that those young men as they were weeping

they were going

they were travelling from boyhood to manhood

because a man knows how to weep

and a man knows the gravity of life and death and and

feels the wound of just just being alive in this world

you know even in a beautiful

peaceful time you know

killing hunting animals to

to eat um

that's part of sustaining life is to do that and

and you know I

deer hunting is big here where I live in Tasmania and

and I eat I eat deer meat all the time

um it's ecological and it's healthy and

and um

and an and a beautiful animal dies for that

and that's part of the

the sorrow and the richness of life

and not to don't say don't do it

but be mindful of of that of

of turning from boys to men is

you know that

make your life worth what has been given for your life

and so

turning from boys to men is

is what we've got to do you know

the world is full of big bodied

big bodies with tiny little boys in them

and I lightening up a bit

showing I can as a psychologist

I was trained to notice the

not the age a person is but the age they got stuck

and and because

and so you know

in Australia called John Howard who um

I really didn't like

and I worked a lot to end his time as a prime minister

and um

he was an eight year old

and everything you could look at him

he was stuck at eight and so was

you know you know

look at me

but

okay yeah yeah

um

we've got a great prime minister now

he's probably made it to fourteen and

I think

there's something about people who rise to leadership

in in a lot of well no

yeah but he's

he's that's good

and um

but I can walk down the street and tick them off

you know two year old

you know nine year old and

and um

because that's when that's when they got stuck and

and so we

pretty important that we start getting moving everyone

we need more adults we need adults in the room

um

and we can talk later about what's involved with that

Sean I'm

I'm it's

it's

it's only 8 o'clock in the morning here in Tasmania and

by all this so I'll just calm myself down a little bit

and we'll keep going no

it's perfect I

I I love this

you know that

that scene that you described in in the story

what it's like to go to war

it

you know that that was an initiation for those boys

right and we've

I've done a lot of talking

with a number of different people

about how we've lost initiation rights

and how important they are and and

and that sort of thing

and it really is a tremendously important thing

to graduate from being a boy into being a man

and to Mark that somehow and we need to

we have an opportunity to be really intentional

about how we do that

but the institutions aren't coming to save us on that

can you tell me a little bit more about the importance

of that initiation process

of moving to a boy to a man

yes and um

perhaps the the

the best thing and and

and every

I feel like we're in a tree that has so many branches

Shauna we should explore a Franciscan

do some more some

do some more of these if you can

if you absolutely feel

but but in the initiation process

there was a

a Franciscan monk um

called Richard Rohr spelled R O

H R

Rohr and he's did some stunning writing on

on this stuff and he

he tried to pin down cause we

you know what we

what we know about about initiation

which was

every culture in the world ever had rites of passage

for the young man it was a

it was seen as a serious preoccupation

to take all that energy that fierce energy that

that we have as as men

which is harnessed is just the best thing

it's what we what's what men bring to the world

you know is this

how come you know

I really wanna cure multiple sclerosis

you know I really wanna build that

build that bridge um

I really wanna even if it's just put

a playground in the primary school

so the kids could got something to do that's

that's that kind of energy

and

aren't I wonderful aren't I important

look at me it's me

me me

which is really it's great in a eight year old

but it's really ugly in a 20 year old

and it's beyond belief in a 77 year old

and so

so raw said OK

when they initiated the young men

it wasn't about it wasn't about the external things

you know about putting cuts in your body and and

and scarring and sitting on mountain tops

and killing lions and things like that

that was the outer journey

but the what were the inner truths

what were the things that were whispered

to the young men

and transmitted to them through stories

and everything else and

he had five

but there's just three that I think really matter

and that would fit today first one

you're going to die

this is the first truth

you you're not immortal

a teenage boy

and the reason teenage boys get killed in car smashes

all the time is they have this

this feeling of immortality

and I have a friend who's a policeman and he

he did this thing

when his son turned 18 and got his driver's license

he said it said

he said son I

there's a thing I'd like to do with you

and you don't have to do it

and if you choose not to I'll respect that

but I

what I'd like to do is take you down to the morgue

and show you what dead looks like

just show you a body in the morgue

and it's just this fit this thing

thought that I have

cause I'm a policeman and I see this

and I'd like you to have this thing

that you understand and the boys thought about it

he said take a couple days

think about it and the son don't don't

it's the last thing I wanna do in the world

is see a dead body

but dad it matters to dad and and

and I I love my dad and I

he's not

it's coming from somewhere that it seems to be good

and so that they did they went to the morgue

and they rolled out those long drawers

and there was just someone in there

and it wasn't a gruesome or a terrible

you know scenario

um because

people watching or listening to this

some of you have seen someone dead

in front of your eyes

and some of you haven't

and some of you will have been with a parent

or someone when they died

and that changes you

and it changes you in a

in a really good way because you you you

you know this kind of shocking thing to us

you can be alive and full of dreams and

and memories and

and everything else and then you're not

and you're just something cold and dead

and life is incredibly precious and not very long

and death can come at any time

and so when you know that in your bones

you don't waste time

playing computer games in your basement

you know all day

um you don't

you know get all shy and not go up to the girl you like

and talk to her

you take your heart in your hands and you go

say you know I'd like to have coffee with you

because because I'm I'm gonna die one day and I will

you know

I'm gonna grab this life

and so that's the first one second one and we

second one and we won't take too long

alright second one is

your life is not about you and because when you're a

when you're a boy

it is it's what can I show off

or what can I experience

or what can I win or get for myself

and what you find out from

bitter experiences you know a new car or a new house

sexual conquest if that's what you're

you know how you see sexuality and conquests

makes you happy for about an hour

um and then you feel kind of empty and like ah

you know better I gotta get another one I suppose

you know

yeah um but

if your life is not about you then what is it about

well maybe how does this sound

that we're in this world

and I was taught this by an indigenous elder

in Australia my teacher

we're here for each other

we're in this world for each other

and the joy and it's real joy

it's lasting joy you know

this joy that I'm having just talking to

to you and to your listeners right now is

when we try

at least trying to be of help to other people yeah

and seeing the putting a smile on the

you know when your wife has a smile on her face and you

and you know you put that there um

today right this time that smile is cause of you and

and your kids are laughing and and

and playing and you know

that part of that is that you worked really hard

that they're safe

and that they've got a roof over their heads and

and um

and they're not scared of

of you and they live in a house where kids can laugh

and make a noise and

which many people didn't have when they were growing up

and so that's two you're gonna die

your life is not about you third one

is you can't control anything

certainly you can't control the outcomes of

of your life now now

I'm a psychologist we work with people

to get better control of their lives

you understand yeah

the paradox of this sort you know right

if you do this

this will happen and this and that will happen

that you can maximize your influence

you know the

the good choices in your life

and it still can go awful

you know

your partner can die your house can burn down

it can turn in a in a

in a moment and so you can either panic about that

or you can just say well you know

who knows what's gonna happen

and I can't you know

I can't control it and and somehow on some level

you relax into the arms of the universe

and let it carry you and let Grace carry you and

and in an odd kind of way

it goes better and and the the

the guys that make a huge hash of their family

and a huge hash of their career even

are the ones who thought

I know I'm gonna control it all

and I'm gonna have every you know

I have to be on top of every little cause it's not a

it's not how it works it's

everything's a dance you know

you dance with your marriage

you dance with your children and dancing

it's about oh

they wanna go this way and I

can I handle that and yeah

oh this has happened

you know what do

you know I just lost my job after 20 years

you know okay

um how do I dance with that

you know um

and let go of the illusion of individual power

um and

and then you step into the community of men

you see

initiation is not just booting you out of childhood

it's saying welcome this is what I just want to say

to everyone who's watching

or listening

there's a community of good men in this world

we're trying to make things better

we want you and we need you

and your efforts and your energy and your talents and

and in exchange we will look out

we will nurture you you know

we'll write the books for you

we'll do the podcast so we'll

we'll run the men's groups and

and we it will

it's not about getting make it on your own

we we welcome you

we we cherish you and um

come on come on over to the

to the the

to the purpose of building a better world

there's this tremendous so there's this real

you brought it up there's this tension

right between

controlling what you can control

and recognizing that the

vast majority of things are outside your control

and you really need to let them go

it's like

it's like you're bowling and when you set up to bowl

you're gonna pick the appropriate ball

you're going to be wearing the right shoes

you're going to have practiced a bunch

you're going to be standing in the right area

and then you're gonna you're

gonna approach the lane

and then you're gonna release the ball

and you're gonna really

really focus hard on all of the things

up to the point that you release the ball

and then once you release the ball

it's in God's hand or whatever

there is no sense even

wasting a single shred of any emotional energy

on what that ball does because

it's all been done

it has all been the dominos have been have been

you know to mix the metaphor

have been put in place and set in motion

and so you know

you might as well just let it go

and the outcome will be what the outcome is

you did your best to get the outcome that you wanted

and maybe you'll get it

maybe you won't and that's and so much of

you know if you were to strain and

worry about it

and fret and get mad if the wrong thing happens

and all of those things if you were to do that

that would just waste your energy for the next time

you need to bowl which is in about a second

and and so like there's

I feel like so much about masculinity is learning to

manage tensions

and you know

there's the tension between what you can control

and what you can't control

there's the tension between being strong and tender

right there's a

there's a you you mention your

your definition of masculinity comes down to in the

in the book you'd write about having heart

but also having backbone

there's a tension between those things

and so and so

much of it is just relearning

how to manage this tension

identify the tension

if things are all over into an extreme

that's usually the wrong the wrong path

and and learn to manage that tension

and I I think that that

observation about about the stuff you can control

versus the stuff you can't control

is just another one of those tensions that we have to

that we have to deal with as men

hmm

yeah it comes to everything

like sexuality was a whole other topic and

you know you

you're just burning with desire

yeah you're burning with desire and

and but it's another human being

and you have you know

you're finding your way with each other and and

and um

so yeah

and and Alcoholics Anonymous

you know

the whole thing of surrendering to a greater power

and when your kid walks out the door

you know he said the bowling ball

you know your

your kid your teenager walks out the door and

you know ha

ha ha

it's yeah

I think a lot of people make

they do this demonstrative thing where they like

worry about it and oh you know

all all of that stuff

but that's

just

admitting that you didn't actually do the prep work

to

make sure that the outcome was as likely as possible

to be that

that you wanted to be so

your kid is driving out the door and I don't know

and you're gonna worry about it

of course you're gonna worry about it

but if you make this like

you shouldn't have to worry about it

like you before that time happened

you've put in the work already

and when that you

the time to worry about it was five years ago

when you were you know

setting them on that road

and

and and then when it finally comes

time to let the ball go and let it roll

you should be able to feel

rest and rest assured in the knowledge that it's gonna

the best possible thing is gonna happen

because I put all the energy in on the front end

there's no way there's no time

there's no sense in putting energy in

after the ball was let go

and it's a little bit not

it's not quite that cut and dried

when it comes to people

because we can influence people

you can influence your children

after they leave the house of course

conversation rather than um manipulation

um

and and

and and yeah

uh Sean

we could go for days I

I'm I

I need to go have a we'll do

we'll definitely do more and this uh

yeah and this

this has been a a little bit of a taste of

I think you know

so but

but like as you know

one of the things I love to do at

at the at the end of these discussions

um is ask for a principle

and last time the principle was that

is another one of those tensions

tenderness is strength and would you

would you be up for sharing

another principle about manhood this time

okay

the thing that was coming out

just as we were talking the last few minutes was

presence and

that it's in the it's

it's today that counts

our kids our kids live in the present moment

it's us who thinks about 10 years down the track

and next year and

and and so

and if we're worried about getting good grades and and

making a living and

and things that are off in the future all the time

we will we will never connect with our kids

because they live today you know

that little boy of yours he wants yeah

he wants to have fun today and

and a good a good childhood is made up of

you know

9,000 today's

when you know

when they see dad's when they

you know when their eyes meet your eyes

and they see you're really looking at them

and it's a soft eyed look

and you're laughing with them

and it's a full bellied laugh

rolling on the floor laugh and um

and when you're gently sort of saying no

that's too dangerous there

you know come away from the big

deep big waves um

and and they feel it and it's gentle

it's just you're you're restraining them

but there's no harshness in it

um then they feel like dad is 100% here

um now very few dads did that in the past

they were off somewhere

whether they're back in the middle of World War 2

or they're back at the office

um and so presents

if you can do presents um

then your

your parenting and your partnering will work really

really well

that's all you got worry about

yeah mildly

I struggle mildly with that and

but you gave me one of those moments today and I'll

so I'll tell you the story um

I uh

so in preparation for this discussion I've

I've been I've been reading the book and I

I I uh

I was a little bit behind on it

I woke up early this morning about 5:30 in the morning

it's very you know

I usually wake up around that time

and the kids were still asleep

and there's a chair in their room

and I decided you know I

I got up and I decided you know

I was reading I was reading the book

I was taking notes

so I wanted to be well informed for this conversation

and so I went in

I sat in their bedroom and I sat in the chair in their

in their bedroom and

and about I don't know

10 or 20 minutes after I sat down reading your book

my boy woke up and uh my

my kids share a room and they have a bunk bed

my boy sleeps on the top

and he woke up and he poked his little head over and

and he saw me and just wordlessly

um

he climbed down the uh

the ladder from the bunk bed and he just

came over and he sat on my lap and gave me a big hug

and kissed my cheek and then walked out the door

that wouldn't happen if I hadn't been scrambling

to try and read as much of the new manhood uh

as I could before this discussion

but I love that principle

that presentness principle

it is it

and it and it

and man

it is something I struggle with

and I I

I need to come up with mechanisms

to keep myself I'm very focused on the future

I'm always like worried about

you know how am I gonna deal with the armies

coming over the hill right

and and by the way

that's an important skill you need

to be able to deal with the armies

coming over the hill but

you can't deal

so much with the armies coming over the hill

that you never have a chance to enjoy

the fruits of worrying

about the army's coming over the hill

which is you're safe

yeah well I

I I

I'm really I'm sort of envious of

I remember those those

you know little kids coming to give you a cuddle yeah

um

and and just

you know the

the amazingness of having little kids

who just love to be with you um

and so you're at a beautiful time of life

Shawn so I do enjoy it yeah

I feel fortunate and fortunately

and luckily I

I get yeah

as part of what I do

I get to have discussions with guys like you

who remind me of how fortunate I am to experience that

so I can actually recognize wow yeah

this is something really nice

yeah and be able to remember it

well thank you so much for

for taking the time again

we will definitely do more of this and

and to everybody listening

if you've traveled with us this far

and if this conversation it

has stirred something in you

regarding your own journey as a man

I highly encourage you to pick up the new Manhood I

I it is beautifully written

it is uh

it's more than just a book

it is a it's a

it's a roadmap

and it is a message that is deeply resonant in

in our situation today and I just absolutely

you know pick it up and uh

uh

man it is it's

it's really good um

and join us next time on Raising Men

as we continue to build a community

of masculine excellence Steve

thanks again I really appreciate you taking the time

to be with us today

thanks to you Sean and and

and love to everyone who's watching and

and listening I'll talk to you another time

and all our listeners remember you're a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino