the best possible outcome from all of this

is that you have two people on the same game plan

as far as what the kids this is

we wanna do what's best for the kiddos

and that may mean sometimes our feelings get hurt

because kid says I

can I go stay with mom tonight

I know it's Dad's night but I miss Mommy

it's fine you know

again no

it's my time damn it

it's like no

you go to your mother as long as she's cool with that

I'm cool with that too whatever you want to do kid

that was something that was a little difficult for me

and for most men you know

going through that process is you don't want to have

use the kids against each other

welcome back to raising men

I'm your host Sean Dawson

now we often talk about the crisis

of masculinity in our culture

but we rarely address one of its quietest symptoms

which is passivity we see the data

86% of men feel heavy pressure to be a provider

yet 40% of young men say

they have absolutely no one to turn to for guidance

there's a massive gap between the men

we feel that we should be

and the examples that our sons actually see

at the breakfast table

today's guest is here to help us close that gap by

starting with the man in the mirror

Ralph Brewer is the founder of the help for Men

Brotherhood and the creator of dad starting over

his latest book is called Rebuild

Ralph thanks so much for joining us today

it's a pleasure to have you on the show

thank you for having me thank you so much John

appreciate it now

let's start our conversation

with the book that started it all

it's called The Dead Bedroom Fix

now while that is an adult topic

it speaks

really down to the core of a man's sense of self

work worth I think

and it's something that we just don't talk a lot about

what prompted you to put that book out into the world

good question

out of everything I could have talked about

you know why that

well my story real quick

is that I went through a nasty divorce

I became a single father to three little kids

and I started blogging about my experience

under the name of dad starting over

that's where that name came from

and I've been creating social media content

under that name for over a decade now

and I started writing on a whole bunch of topics

in a blog and like most blogs

I didn't get much attention

until I started writing on the subject of sex

specifically sex and marriage

and somebody said I like your take on this and this

you should write a book on it

and so I was really hungering for some kind of mission

and something to do with myself and

you know really get me going

something to light a fire under my butt

and so the idea of writing a book

something I like writing

I've never written a book before

so I did it and when you know it

it kind of took off so much so that actually

the third edition of that book came out last year

and it's called The Dead Bedroom Fix

as you mentioned and

since that point and from that point forward

out of all topics I've ever spoken about

that is the No. 1 topic by a long shot

I mean I can talk about custody of kids

financial issues physical fitness

all the typical dad things

you know guy things and then nothing

nothing nothing alright

how about the fact that a lot of us aren't getting any

in marriage or not enough

and kaboom

the bomb goes off and guys just lose their minds

and that's all they want to talk about

so if you know

if my uh

website traffic is down a little bit

or my social media traffic is down a little bit

I'll just put on one of those videos and Kaboom

it'll spike again so it begs the question

what the heck's going on

why out of everything I've ever spoken about

why is that the No. 1 topic

and I'm not alone I know psychologists and other

content creators who put out similar material covering

you know a span of the human condition

and they will say the same thing

sex sells and it's any marketer

businessman will tell you the same thing

oh yeah you know

sex sells that's what a lot of guys want to talk about

I think it's a little deeper than that

uh maintaining

a healthy sexuality according to the average Joe

our definition of that within the confines

if you will of a long term monogamous relationship

is relatively difficult

and we've been undersold just how difficult that is

most of us yeah

I think the popular culture almost it well

it conveys that it should be effortless and

you know you ride off into the sunset

and you live happily ever after

and then and and thereafter it's

you know it's all roses and

and puppy dogs and it's not that easy

is it if it was

then I wouldn't sold so many pricks

so it's it's a big problem

and it's something that's not talked about enough

and it's something that a lot of men

here's a really negative way to look at it

if a lot of young guys were pulled aside at the age of

when they're starting to consider

let me find my life mate and all that other good stuff

we were pulled aside and given like a boot camp

so to speak on here's what marriage is like

and here is what it takes

to make maintain connection

and there's a very good chance

you may not maintain the connection way

the way you want to I wonder

what percentage of men would

bow out of the relationship game completely

that's like

a really big eye opener for a lot of women to hear like

oh my gosh it's that important

yeah it

it's that important to a lot of guys

yeah I think that's

I think that's right and by the way

there's a positive feedback loop there too right

as as that declines or a negative feedback loop

as that declines the relationship gets worse

which makes it harder to get that going

and vice versa if

if if your sex life is amazing

then that really um

translates to a wonderful relationship as well

yeah we know for a fact with data

that those couples that say

we are happy as a couple man and woman both

there's a definite correlation between that

and the frequency of sex in the relationship

the couples that say once or twice a week on average

are the happiest couples

I love that I love that we're bringing data into this

so so tell me about what's yeah

you know what is the fix

what is you know

if if you're a

if you're a man

that you're looking down the barrel at that and

you know ultimately um

what I should do is buy your book but uh

but you know

give me give me the 50,000 foot view

the majority of men that consume my material

and get to the point of buying a book

watching a YouTube video

entering my men's group are what we call anxious men

it's a all encompassing term

you can look at it a couple different ways

one is that they are very anxious in their temperament

filled naturally with a lot of anxiety

and thing two is

they are very anxiously attached to their partner

there's this whole theory in psychology

called attachment theory

most people within relationships

that are anxiously attached

or preoccupied with a relationship are usually women

but there's a large contention of men out there

and those are the men that take in a lot of self help

relationship oriented material

how can I make my marriage better

how can I reignite my sex life

and on and on those are the

most of the men who bought my book

can fall under that category

so for those men if there is hope for your relationship

and hope for turning around

the sexuality in the relationship

to way oversimplify

the answer is to become a more secure man

to become more secure in who you are

and consequently

more secure in your attachment to your partner

not constantly pursuing them

not constantly hovering over them

not constantly needing reassurance from them

please wife

make me feel better stop being upset

yes dear

whatever you say dear

happy wife happy life

just fine don't be upset

I can't stand that you're upset

when you're upset it ruins me completely

it's very codependent

is what the psychologist would call that

a very codependent nature to these men

Doctor Robert Glover wrote a book called

no more Mr Nice Guy

that is all about that codependence in men

one of the biggest books there is on the topic

that is the big relationship

slash sexuality killer within a long term

monogamous relationship that I see

I'm sure there are all kinds of different facets of

dead bedrooms out there we have

a lot of avoiding men

that don't want to connect emotionally to the women

they're just like leave me alone

you know very typical stereotypical guy thing

but that's not who I see at all

interesting so

but I mean

is the solution just to be more of an asshole

that's one way of looking at it

in fact funny you say that

that's the way a lot of anxious guys see it

a lot of your nice guy types

when they see a man who has a lot of luck with women

and he will look at the guy and study the man

they're like he's kind of a dick

he's kind of he's

he's kind of really full of himself and cocky

he's like that's one way of looking at it

or you could say in psych terms

I'm not a psychologist

but I know enough to be dangerous

the psych terms

would be he is very low in trait neuroticism

means he doesn't have a lot of negative thought anxiety

depression

he's more upbeat guy and he's very extroverted

usually he puts himself out there

he's not afraid to to fail

he's not afraid to get turned down by 20 women in a row

oh well

who cares no big deal

well the guy who's very introverted

and very high in neuroticism

a very anxious guy

gets turned down once or twice and he's done yeah

so there's something to be Learned from those

extroverted guys

and it's not so much be a cocky asshole

as it is to be confident sure

in who you are very secure in who you are

knowing who you are what your values are

and what your identity is

that's what I wrote my latest book rebuild

talking about building that identity

a lot of men go through their whole childhood

young adulthood

and into marriage without really knowing who am I

what what do I want

does this does my new mate match up with that

nobody asks those questions

it all boils down to if you're a very insecure man

does she like me enough

and not run away like all the other girls did

if not oh

good enough she's my wife to be then

and we need to be a little bit more pragmatic about

picking our mate yeah

well one of the things that I've realized uh

especially since having kids

is that so much of life boils down to attention

between two extremes and it's really all

it's always very tempting to

to decide that one of these extremes is maladaptive

or isn't working for me

so I'm just gonna go all the way to the other side

and what you're describing here is

there's a tension between becoming an anxious

nice guy

who just wants to please everybody all the time

which means that like frankly

your wife is not going to be attracted to that

she's not looking for that

she's looking for a provider and a protector

and those you're not sending her that signal

versus on way on the other side of the extreme

just being a complete asshole

and the right tension there I think is is really

really critical especially when it comes

to the messages that you're sending your kids right

you don't want to send your kids

the message that you are a jerk to your wife

but you also don't want to be the doormat over there

and so you need to figure out what that tension is

and honor your spouse honor your wife in a way that it

that that isn't isn't chasing after her

trying to please her and being anxious

would you would you agree with that

you nailed it that that's the difficult thing

that

that delicate balancing act is what I often call it

yeah you do need to be emotional and open and

vulnerable with your spouse

but there's a limit

and if you're an anxious man who has a lot of oh

tension and anxiety built up

which a lot of these guys do

and they hold it in

and they hold it in and they hold it in

and then kaboom

they emotionally vomit as it's called

all over their spouse and the spouse just left going

what the heck is this I

I can't trust this man anymore

I don't feel safe

you'll hear the ladies say around this man anymore uh

often this comes at a moment

where the woman is having a very unsteady

emotional moment and she comes to hubby and she's like

I I'm not feeling good

I'm feeling anxious about this

I'm feeling unsure help steady me

and he just can't take anymore

and he vomits all over her

so the lesson is just this circle of back and forth of

I can't be this way

cause I can't trust him with my feelings

and he emotionally vomits all over her and he's like

look I

I knew it men can't be vulnerable with women

it's it's

that leads to a lot of dysfunction in the relationship

and around and around they go

it's very unhealthy so what do you do

I mean if you're feeling this anxiety

if you're feeling that what do you do about that

how do you become

how do you experience that security

you know it sounds a little boilerplate

and a lot of guys listening to this

kind of roll their eyes but you hate to say it

but a lot of the origins of this starts in childhood

you were raised by a certain mom and dad

who raised you in a certain way

and the way they interacted with you

has a lot to do with how you

interact with your romantic partners

and your kids down the line

and then you watch them and how they interact

mom and dad if you're so lucky

they stayed married throughout your childhood

and you watched the dad say yes dear

whatever dear

and escape to the basement and work in his workshop

and stay the heck away from mom

and mom rolling her eyes and discussed dad all the time

you internalize that

and you had a front row seat for it

well I guess this is just how couples act

and then you marry somebody just like mom

and you're like oh man

here we go again and like clockwork

you get divorced just like mom and dad did

or whatever it may be

and we're just repeating these same patterns all over

over and over again so

I think it behooves a lot of guys to first

take an honest step back

and you may do this via therapy

I'm not a therapist

but a therapist may sit down with you and just say

let's really sit down

and think about what's going on with you

where do you think this comes from

tell me about mom tell me about dad

aha now we've identified it

now you can say now

you can recognize

when you're going down the wrong path here

and you can go you know what

time out stop

let's let's not do this path

let's turn around go back and try again

and a lot of that starts with

recognizing all those things that you were taught

as a kiddo that aren't so healthy

and a lot of that is OK

now that we've kind of identified

and we know what the wrong path is

what's the right path here

what what do I want out of life

unfortunately for a lot of anxious type men

who are married to their polar opposite

ironically the very avoidant woman

a lot of these men realize there's no help in this

this woman has told me from day 1 how she is

and I said you got it

and I married her and I had kids with her

and I've done so for the last 15

20 25 years

whatever may be I can't turn this around tomorrow

and most likely statistically

I probably won't be able to turn this around

not to the level that I want in a relationship

I want a nice loving partner who I can be open with

somebody who likes physical intimacy

somebody who when I walk in the door says

how was your day handsome

yeah that

sounds silly but a lot of men like

almost weep when they hear me say something like that

because they've never heard it ever

and I listen to the stories of their wife and I go

that's never gonna be her

my friend you know

you can become the most secure individual on the planet

earth you can look like a Greek God

you can do all these great things

that's she is who she is

and she has told you Point Blank

she ain't never gonna get help with it

cause she doesn't see that there's a problem

so the more secure you become

as any person who works on this kind of stuff

what they'll tell you is

you're gonna leave some people behind

and those are people that you determine

aren't so healthy for you

and unfortunately

that may be your spouse and the mother to your children

that sucks

yeah I

I I'm

I'm with you I

I think that is that's a great segue into uh

another topic the topic of your latest book uh

which is called rebuild and so

you know obviously

sometimes it doesn't work out or sometimes you decide

wow we're just

we're just not gonna be compatible now what do you do

hmm yeah

what do you do do well

for a lot of guys it's

you better buckle up

your life's about to get very interesting unfortunately

you know divorce is not a pretty thing

although I am hearing more

and more about very amicable divorces

I think what helps in that process is the fact that

more and more the women in our lives make just as much

if not more than us and so

that kind of changes the tone as far as child support

alimony and everything else is concerned

and often you go let's just go to the mediator

and the mediator says you get this debt

you get that debt you get this asset

you get you get that asset

uh 50

50 child custody is becoming more

more common some states are defaulting to that

you know if there's divorce

then we will default to 50 50

you have to prove that there's reason not to

as opposed to

you need to prove reason that there should be

that's an awesome thing

so a lot of men that I talk to are financially

I'm not hurt that bad in fact

after maybe six months a year or so down the line

I go you know what

it's almost like I got a raise

I thought

I thought the divorce thing was supposed to be bad

it's like when you eliminate a whole

another person and spending habits out of the equation

you you may end up doing better

and what a lot of men say is uh

the relationship with my children has actually improved

because I'm much more focused on them

when I have them under my roof

yeah when they're with mom

for the the week after that

I often still go to all their practices

and their sporting events

and their school events

and I pick them up for lunch every now and then uh

the one kid text me I don't know where and said

you wanna do dinner and I took him out to dinner

and they realize it's almost like um

my time is limited I know it is

I'm not gonna have this kid 24 7

so I better make it special while I have them yeah

it's funny how that

how life kind of teaches us those lessons

but a lot of men do pretty well after divorce

I know there's a big uh uh

oh what's the word

narrative out there that men are destroyed

men are you know

brutalized in divorce and so forth again

talk about data driven if you compare the men and women

men tend to do a lot better financially

if you want to use that as a gauge

after divorce long term than what women do

so I'm not saying that as a pro divorce guy

I'm doing that as a

I'm saying that rather as a guy who says

if it's inevitable like there's no going there

there's no changing this it is what it is

you've tried everything you can

and the wife just gives you the big middle finger

and says go away

and you realize this is the only way to go down you'll

you'll probably it's not the end of the world yeah

you'll be okay it's not the end of the world

I I think um I think that it

it can also really improve your relationship

with your now ex spouse because

you're now just partners in raising your children

and if you can get on the same page about that

and there's not all of this

added expectation

of whatever resentments were building up over time

that you now it's it you just narrowed the scope of

of your partnership and it's easier to succeed

because it doesn't have all these other things

very well put I love it

you're exactly right it's it for a lot of people

we were already co parents anyway

it's just that

we were technically living under the same roof

it was already kind of a business negotiation

any kind of romance or emotional connection was gone

years ago but now it's on the table at post divorce

yeah there you go

I was gonna say it's more overt

it's out in the open now this is what it is

we can drop all the pretense

and the knowledge

and the resentment of not connecting that way

and husband you can stop being so ticked off

that I won't touch you anymore

it's understood that yeah

we're not living in the same roof

we're not husband and wife

obviously we're not gonna touch each other anymore phew

we can just you know take that off

the table

and concentrate on what we need to concentrate on

the kiddos right

and you're right you could be like why

why didn't we do this sooner

as sad as that sounds but another

another thing that can happen there is it can get sour

the resentments can just overflow

and you don't get that meeting of the minds about okay

now let's just make sure our kids thrive

and it becomes it becomes a battle and

and that is particularly dangerous

I think for

for a father or parent of boys

um because boys have much worse outcomes than girls

if there isn't a man in the house

or they're not spending time around quality men

and that that can end up being the default if

in these sorts of ugly situations

what

what do you think you need to do

in order to establish that healthy relationship

with good boundaries and make sure that

your son is getting access to the best part of you

and and all of that

let's just put this out there

for the men that I work with

those anxious men that I talked about

not only do they tend to pair up with the avoidant

woman but they often times

especially our neurodivergent guys

the guys that are on ADHD

autism spectrum and so forth

they have a higher chance of connecting with a woman

who may have a personality disorder

for example so they're in a very toxic relationship it

doesn't show its true toxic colors until down the line

after kids come into the picture

and you got a lot of stress and everything settles in

the honeymoon phase passes

and then you're like who is this person

it can get really

really toxic and really nasty in a hurry

and then once you divorce

it seems like

those women are hell bent on making your life hell

as much as possible

they will kick a man while he's down

and it doesn't make any sense to the poor guy

who's like I

I I didn't want the divorce

I wanted to stay together

I'm just want to do this for our kids

and why is she trying to punish me at every turn

this is very important for those guys to get help

don't do this alone you can get overwhelmed in a hurry

and what you need to learn are those tactics of

there's a little psych tactic called a gray rock

I don't know if you're familiar with this

when you're dealing with like

a narcissistic person

or somebody who's very histrionic

and trying to get a rise out of you emotionally

an example I often give is

let's say you two are in mediation

and you're sitting across the table from each other

and you get to the point of a divorce mediation

and you get to the point of

they talk about child custody

this is a really common scenario

by the way and

they're like okay

Mister so and so proposes that we do a 50 50 split

one week with mom one week with dad

here's how we'll handle the holidays

and summer break and everything

and the mom just starts bawling her eyes out

I can't believe you're taking the kids away from me

this is horrible the kids need their mother um

I should have them 75% of the time

this is wholly unfair

just because I did these horrible things to you

cheated on you whatever

doesn't mean that I'm a horrible mother

why are you punishing me like this

why are you punishing our kids

and on and on and on a gray rock picture

just a lump of stone sitting there

not reacting just listens to her and says okay

on to page 2 and as if

you know none of that phases you

that is the oh the

the template structure you need to have in mind for you

and your interactions with your toxic

for lack of a better word

ex going forward

all that just bounces right off of you

it has no impact on you there's no legal anything there

so why even bother responding to it or taking it in

and on top of that the emotional component

know your legal rights

I don't know

how many men just roll over and just be like

ah drama

I don't like it

all this negativity and toxicity from her fine

fine whatever fine

and in the process of doing the fine

fine whatever fine

they're giving up money

they're giving up time with their children

they're hurting themselves in the long run

when they need somebody put an arm around them going

buddy you know

you have rights here you don't have to give all this up

no one asked you to spend this extra money

you know

you have the right to see the child X percent of time

whatever it is in your state country whatever yeah

so know your rights

get an attorney that's gonna fight for you

understand the inside out of all of this stuff

and don't let her emotionality affect you so much

uh you have a right to see those children

just as much as she does

and don't let anybody tell you otherwise

it could be argued that women are more nurturing and

you know they tend to be the logistical managers in the

in the family let's be honest

they're the ones

typically that know the doctor appointments in the

this school thing and that thing

you may have to take that over dude

or you're gonna take over some of it

it's just a matter of

yeah you're gonna

it's a new skill you have to learn just like any other

not a big deal but you're right

it can get pretty nasty there's this whole

parental alienation thing that you hear often about

where the for example

the mother of the children

may say you know

your father is a horrible

terrible person

let me try to poison your mind about things about dad

whether they're true or not

so that you will spend more time with me and you will

instead of going to dad

that's a very common tactic for a lot of frankly

mentally ill women and that's not a slam

a lot of them do have mental illness

you know borderline personality disorder

bipolar disorder whatever it may be

those are not unheard of in my world

when it comes to anxious guys

who got with the wrong gal

so many years ago

we hear this kind of stuff all the time

yeah I

I and I imagine

you know

I imagine the mother has her own version of that story

and at the end of the story

the most important thing is that you

come up with a constructive

mechanism moving forward right

I mean and

and it can be an asset this

this new regime that you're getting into

can be way better than the old one

you just have to seek it out and

and better for both of you

and that's that's

that's the goal there right

and if you if you start focusing on

if you if you have this fixed pie mentality and

and it's easy to get there where

where every

every loss to her is a gain to me or vice versa

she feels that way about me

then it it's all I

I feel like the the divorce industrial complex

that's what they almost thrive on right

you know the

the the divorce lawyers will sit there and

and they'll be happy to continue fighting for 10 years

and that's not in your interests at all

I don't think no so

you know so

the best possible outcome from all of this is that

you have two people on the same

same game plan as far as what the kids

this is we wanna do what's best for the kiddos

and that may mean sometimes our feelings get hurt

because kid says I can I go stay with mom tonight

I know it's Dad's night but I miss Mommy that's fine

you know again

no it's my time

damn it it's like no

you go to your mother as long as she's a cool with that

I'm cool with that too whatever you wanna do kid

that was something that was a little difficult for me

and for most men you know

going through that process is

you don't wanna use the kids against each other

I think that's a good

I try to talk about the last topic that I

that I really want to cover and

and that is the brotherhood

um

you know data shows that 40%

of young men don't feel like they have

anyone to turn to for help and

and I think that the institutions that we

men used to rely on in order to get

us together and get us talking about difficult subjects

those are gone and that is an opportunity

and it and

and it's and it's a problem in the sense that

the problem is that the institutions are gone

so if we don't intentionally make it happen

it won't but the opportunity is

we now have a way of making it happen

that we can customize to ourselves

but you've created a society of men

a brotherhood that proportion that

that that tries to address this tell me about that

yeah overall with men

to your point about guys feeling kind of isolated

and no one to turn to that is not just kiddos

it's adult men dare I say

probably more so with adult men

especially after children come into the picture

and that gets more in focus

after something like divorce

so we have a guy

who goes through the horribleness of divorce

and he's like well world

here I am Mister Vulnerable

hurt by divorce and he just hears crickets

he doesn't hear a lot

he doesn't get a lot of the same kind of over the top

fan fair help that maybe his ex wife gets

it could be argued

she did a much better job of cultivating a network

while you guys were a couple together

while you were more isolated

that's very very typical

it could be argued it is kind of a sexist thing

the damsel in distress syndrome

people tend to come to

the rescue of a woman in need versus a man

but it behooves us as men

to be very purposeful

and creating that community for ourselves

most men are very passive

when it comes to cultivating that

you know from a wider 30,000 point of view

we have uh

this concept of it takes a village to raise a child

whatever it may be in my opinion

that's very true and for some reason we've

over the past several generations have moved towards no

we don't need the extended family and friend network

and everything it's just fine with just wife and I

so it's not uncommon for guys to say

we moved across country for some job opportunity

away from all my family and friends

that I've known for years and

oh crap now we're divorced and I have nobody to help

it's just me all by my lonesome

it's like yeah dude

it's not supposed to be that way

it's supposed to be a whole community around you

of grandpa's grandma's aunts uncles

cousins friends of friends

and everything else that help each other

we've gotten away from that now

more specifically down to the men

we've really gotten

away from any kind of fraternal organization

all centered around some kind of cause

uh so what I will hear often from men is when I ask

do you have like men in your life you could turn to

they say well

I have this guy named Joe

I hang out every now and then with him

we watch football and then there's this other guy

who is the husband

of the woman that my wife works with

and I kind of I'm we're kind of buddies

we text you know

funny things back and forth every now and then

and that's about it

that's his social network

and he does so when things really hit the fan

so to speak and things are going bad

he basically has wife to lean on and when she's gone

he has nobody to lean on so we recognize this

it was something I experienced myself

so I created the Brotherhood

you guys can learn more at help for men dot com

you can go right to the join page

at help for men.comslashjoin

and it's

hundreds and hundreds of guys from around the world

all getting together in private forums

nobody else can see what you're talking about

private zoom meetings

we have a bunch of zoom meetings every single week

and then we record all the zoom meetings

so if you want to listen back to them

like a podcast format

we have like over 14 hours of podcast

or of audio from our meetings

as well as all my books courses

one on one coaching with myself

other guys on the team

we get together in person at a conference in the US

as well as Australia

and it's a bunch of guys that all get together for the

purpose of talking about this really difficult stuff

that they don't talk about with their buddy Joe

and they certainly don't talk about it with their ex

wife or anybody else stuff like the sexless marriage

or if you're a divorced guy

um I can't seem to get a date

uh I can't seem to get past the first date or two

with a woman or

I'm having a really difficult time

finding my purpose in life

and what the heck I am and

or after a divorce I'm really struggling financially

and whatever it may be all these the gamut

we have probably

the majority of the guys in our group

are actually still married

and they hope to remain that way

but it's tough it's really tough

they're maybe with the wrong gal

they don't have the skills necessary to keep it going

and then we have the guys that are divorced

guys that have never been in a long term relationship

and we have a very very good community

very close knit and a lot of resources there

under the umbrella of the Brotherhood

and it's probably the most

not probably

it is the most rewarding thing I've done so far

is to be a part of that group

and to start that group and be a part of a day to day

it's awesome I can imagine I uh what do you think the

what brings most men to that group and what do they get

out of it

still the number one driver to that group is

the dead bedroom fix book yeah

so it's the last survey I did

something like 70

some percent of the membership

came as a result of that one book

now here's the thing though

when we look at the guys that are in the dead bedroom

situations

and then the guys that have gone through the divorce

middle of divorce whatever

they're on that relationship spectrum

a lot of stuff in common

namely that anxious temperament that I talked about

the anxious form of attachment

attaching to the wrong women

a history of wrong women

we used to consider maybe I need to focus my

my efforts just on the dead bedroom

sex and marriage thing like

scrap all the other stuff

and just hone in on this Silo right here

cause

that seems to be where a lot of people are coming in

well but a lot of those guys end up being divorced guys

end up being

you guys struggling with relationships in general

guys struggling with with parenting

and they all mix together

how they got in

really doesn't seem to matter all that much

yeah I do you do you find that

I mean it's gotta be the case

is there any data about this

that it's gotta be the case

that men who are in this brotherhood

or have this kind of social grouping

have to be more successful

at navigating these challenges

is there data that that

that you have access to that uh

that shows that people in general

men or women it's just

the fact that women tend to do a better job of it

need to form a social group

and community around themselves

in order to have good mental health

we're herd animal if you

you could you could have

thank you you could have a guy that's got

I got my sleep honed in I got my fitness honed in

my job I'm making high six figures and everything else

but he doesn't ever talk to anybody or interact

or have any really good friends

or anyone to vent about things

he's not gonna be a healthy individual

he's gonna suffer as a result

and it's not uncommon for those guys

who seem to have everything going

for them to be depressed

and often the missing component is other people

as sad as that is yeah

I I mean

I've told this story before

but I I have a close friend who

we were talking and he goes

oh yeah I need to tell you about something

and I said I

I said oh

just as long as you're not telling me

you and your wife are getting divorced

we're in good shape and he was just quiet

and this oh has been one of my closest friends

since we were in eighth grade together

and I mean I had the predictable reaction

oh we gotta work

this out and there's no way and we can't

you know blah blah

blah and all this stuff and then

he started telling me about

what his life has been like

in the last 10 years and I was shocked because

like I'm one of his best friends

and I didn't know any of this stuff

and then I realized that I have my own challenges

I have my own challenges

that I haven't necessarily shared with him

and what kind of friend have I been to him

where I'm not I'm not sharing with him the deepest

most difficult things I'm dealing with

and he's not sharing with me

and we're supposed to be best friends

that's

that's sick my wife has probably

eight people that she shares

every detail of her life with

and she has this rich social fabric

and I realized that I didn't have that at all

and by the way I'm

you know pretty successful

reasonably happy great guy

I I have a wonderful life

but boy

I haven't cultivated that

and and it really

really shocked me

this situation with my friend really shocked me

and we ended up bonding over

I mean I kind of I

I tried to help him navigate his

his divorce situation which ended up

you know like you described

ended up being a net benefit for everybody involved

because it it

you know they were able to

to forge a partnership that

that worked out really well

but that's awesome yeah

vulnerability is a tough thing for dudes

meaning roll over

expose your belly and say this is who I am

this is what's going on with me

because a lot of us have been taught

let's be honest

that some of us had got bit of timer too

when we did that we were made fun of

or the girl didn't want to talk to us anymore

or something like that

and it doesn't take much for us guys to internalize

and go okay

message received

you kind of keep that stuff to yourself

or else you get punished

what what we've Learned is even with your

your best friend you're like

I just keep this to myself

I don't need to bother bother Joe with this

what a lot of men need is some kind of overt

obvious structure to be in place to say

this is where you talk about this stuff

this is where you are safe to do so

trust me

we've all been there and done that we've seen it all

we've heard it all don't feel embarrassed by sharing

it has to be really over the top obvious like that

and within behind walls

so no one else can see what you have going on

your ex wife won't see it

your current wife won't see it

your kids won't see it it's just between us dude

then they let the guard down and then they're like okay

and men can be as vulnerable as you can I mean

tears

hugs the whole nine yards as long as they feel quote

safe to do so and that's what our group

and groups like it are all about

I love that you know I

I one of the things that I

I absolutely love about some of your writing is

you emphasize ownership over blame

and I think that this is a

we need to take ownership of of our community

and you can sit there

and you can wallow in your basement

and play your video games

and vape or whatever and

and blame the world for the crappy state of your life

or you can take ownership of it

and one really good

first step of taking ownership of that is

is to join your group

appreciate that yeah

victimhood is very contagious and very addictive

there are entire communities online of men

who do nothing but bellyache about those stupid women

and the world is out to get us

and don't even bother trying

it's very nihilistic just I mean

if you wanna simplify it

there's a lot it's a loser mentality right

you're just gonna lose anyway so why bother trying

and boy you watch those groups

if one of them tries to escape the group

and the crab trying to crawl out of the bucket boy

they pull him right down so you'll see it online

there's a lot of communities of men are you familiar

with guys that call themselves incels

are you familiar with this term

the involuntary celibate guys

get those guys all in a room talking together

oh boy and if one of them happens to meet a girl

that he likes oh

they'll all let him know that she's a worthless

you know what don't even bother it's terrible

you're gonna lose

she's gonna cheat on you and leave you

crabs in a bucket man

and that stuff is very infectious

and it's tough to escape from yeah

and and by the way

if you feel the pull towards that look around you

which one of these guys do you wanna be

right you I mean that's you surrounded yourself

that's who you're gonna become if you're not already

yeah that's that's it's

it's scary and it's sad and I

but it's the only community these

some of these guys have

and I feel like yeah and and

what what's part of what

what is partially attractive about that group is that

these men hate to hear the terms like

ultimate responsibility and all things

because what they what they infer from that is

so this person across from me

like this toxic woman that I'm with

she's completely at zero fault

it's all me is that what you're trying to say

it's always the men's fault

the men just get really angry about this like no dude

regardless of what she does

you still have ultimate decision over are you

staying in the relationship

what are you putting up with

what are your boundaries

what will you with your identity and all these things

that's all on you man

no one said you have to stick around with that woman

she's gonna do what she's going to do

or that guy's gonna mistreat you

whatever it may be

you don't have to remain in this in this victim mode

you have ultimate responsibility over your life

you get to make all the decisions not her

and but that's a little scary

isn't it

it's much easier to point across the aisle and say no

it's all them

that's the excuse my language the chicken shit way out

yeah and and it's it's not masculine right

there's nothing less masculine than a voluntary victim

right

yeah the

the the whole

but the whole masculinity thing is up for grabs

I guess now the in question now

I've been on shows where it's been asked Ralph

what does it mean to be a man

I go that's a good question

it's it depends on who you ask and when you ask it

and where in the world you're asking it

there seem to be some tenants that are constant

or consistent across cultures

and across geography but that's a big question now

and a lot of people are saying

does it even matter

what's masculine and what's feminine

can't we just all live our lives

I say well you can try to

be as egalitarian as you want

but there's certain structures and

underlying behaviors

that always seem to seep to the surface

in men and women again

cross culturally wherever you're at in the world

so there's some very very good things about quote

masculinity that we don't want to

you know throw the baby out with the bath water

there are some toxic things for sure

just as there are with the opposite sex

but there's some real positives

and we seem to be losing a lot of that unfortunately

and I'm hoping

I'm hoping through conversations like this we can

uh we can claim it back

very good so I

I love to finish up these conversations by asking

more or less the same question of everybody

and so if you had to distil your philosophy into

one principle that

every father should be trying to pass down to his son

to survive today's cultural landscape

what would that principle be

it's okay to get help

I don't know how many

really great men with a lot of really great potential

limit themselves a great deal

by not just raising their hand going

can somebody help me out with this

because they're too proud

they have too much of an ego

or they don't want to come across as weak

and they don't want other people to think less of them

every single great man that I've ever known

great is a subjective term

the guys that I look up to

they've all recognized the value of help

in form of networking groups

and getting together with their peers

and doing the power lunches

and getting together with their business groups

whatever it may be networking groups

I've been an entrepreneur for years

and my eyes were opened years ago to

I didn't realize there were these business groups

with all these important men

just sitting around you know

they're not just shooting the bull

they're actually helping each other out

and I know a guy you need to talk to and don't do that

if I were you

I would do this it kind of opens your mind oh wow

all these guys are getting help they all say hey guys

help me out with this

that doesn't necessarily need to be

just in the business world

it most definitely needs to be

when it comes to what's going on up here in your head

and your your mental and emotional well being

it's okay to say I need some help here

and if if more and more men truly embody that

and felt safe to do so

we would cure a lot of problems out there yeah

I I would even add to that and it's more than just OK

it's it's a virtue

it's a absolute positive virtue and in fact

I mean think about it this way

if another man came up to you and asked for help

wouldn't you be thrilled

isn't that you would feel honored by that

and he looks up to you why so

why aren't you honoring other men

by giving them the opportunity to help you

very well put I love it

Ralph it has been an absolute pleasure

uh speaking with you

thank you so much for taking the time

to dive deeper into Ralph's work

and find his brotherhood the list of his books

all of those things the links are all in the show notes

so definitely check them out

Ralph it's been an absolute pleasure

thanks again for being on on uh

on Raising Men and remember that you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino