if we as men spend our entire time like

I'm a tough guy I'm this

I'm that if all you do is project that image man

you are brittle right

like you will yeah

there is nothing you can withstand

if you're constantly tense

today on Raising Men I'm joined by Paul Kicks

he's a journalist a storyteller

he's the author of you have to be prepared to die

before you can begin to live

Paul's work

has taken him deep into the heart of what drives people

especially in extreme moments

and some of those same things show up in fatherhood

and in raising men Paul

thank you so much for joining us

it is just an absolute pleasure to have you

it's likewise likewise

my friend thank you

uh now

your career has revolved around uncovering deep

human stories how has being a storyteller shaped

the way that you see fatherhood

and the narrative that you pass on to your sons

oh man

that's such a great question

uh I think probably

oh wow

I don't even want to be flipping with it

let me think that through

so um

alright

probably the best way to answer that is to say that

I think a lot now about raising the boys

not just with I guess what you would say

the traditional traits of masculinity

you know strength boldness

assertiveness

but also I guess you could say for

for a whole more holistic approach

like make sure that they do so with kindness as well

make sure that they realize that um

they realize that actually

what it means to be a real man is to lead a household

yes but then also be kind enough to

to everybody who lives in that household

and frankly like

I try to practice what I preach

you know but it's not I

I sometimes find short I fall short

like there are times where I'm yelling at the boys

or our daughter or

you know like I can be short with my wife

and I think it's like

I think it's something that I'll probably myself

how to be a father is something I'll probably have to

continue to practice until I'm yeah

until they're well until

until they're their own fathers

right until my

until my daughter is absolutely

yeah I

I uh I

I recognize that in myself

I did the same thing and part of that jury is

I mean obviously

ideally we would never make any mistakes

and we would never snap at our kids or at our wives

or something like that

but it's just as important in those

those moments are an opportunity to model the right

repair behavior too

yeah and

and so yeah

I think it's kind of important to have some Grace about

well okay

fine we all fall short

but you know this is what we do when that happens

yeah exactly

like

my wife came to me last week and was basically like

my mother in law she has dementia

and she's lived with us for about 10 years

she's had the condition for

the

condition has been pronounced for about the last two

and she came to me and she was just like

I need you to be more of a rock than you have been

and what she meant in that moment was

I need you to sort of like see me

extend the sort of kindness that

you know you used to do all the time to me

uh

cause I was concerned slash consumed with my own career

you know our kids are all teenagers now and

and there's a lot of activities

that are constantly going on

my days seem sort of busier than ever yeah

I'd sort of forgotten about her and that mix

and so it's just been like a

a conscious effort the last week or so to be like okay

here I am what do you need

um let's take a moment like check in with you

you know and by the way

like doing that you know

she said to me I don't know that

there have been times where

I don't want to bring my own problems to you

because I'm I see like

you know concerns you have about work

or concerns with the kids or whatever

and it's like why should I add one more thing

and that honestly man

like that was even worse because it's like

oh my God like if you feel that you can't come to me

then then this isn't like this

I'm not doing my job right

so there is something fundamentally broken

I mean that

that is the the wing is off the plane at that moment

yeah so then it's

then it's a question of okay

well it's actually

I feel better I feel in some sense rejuvenated

if I know that you can come to me right

so whatever

whatever concern you think I have

which is she's a we've been together more than 20 years

she can read me quite well

yeah um

just know that like if you come to me

I can pivot from that uh

and you know

like I

I so OK

so like what does it mean to be a modern man

my dad my grandfather

they were uh farmers

they grew up in Iowa they rent the

I'm the fifth I'm the sixth gen

well that was 1

2 3

4 5

I'm the fifth generation uh

farmer son of a farmer

and I did not farm but everybody before me did

yeah and so the men that I'm familiar with are guys who

you know fix everything before them

don't say a whole lot

are are reserved and strong

and I thought that

that would be the way to lead my life

and to a certain extent it is right

like for a long time

I was in corporate media and I would always

when I was used to bitch about where I worked

my dad would be like

I literally don't know how to help you here because

like I've been haha

right so he's like

I don't know what it means to have all these

this upper management I was at ESPN for a long time

so it's like yeah

you know just the

the layers and layers between ESPN and Disney

of management and navigating that anyway

the upshot is

I've been on my own now for the past 5 years

and a certain respect

like what I saw as a kid was very helpful for me to

like you know

figure out how to do things on my own now

at the same time my dad never saw a therapist

you know I see a therapist

I see it as almost like a physical check in right

like why not

talk to somebody about what's going on in my life

um I think that's very healthy

you know uh

so something that would have been verboten uh

in my certainly in my grandfather

I don't even think it was around right

like 70 years ago right

they didn't really exist right

yeah yeah

um and certainly like it

you know my dad would have never done that

but I talk with my dad about like

what my therapist has told me

and it's been incredibly helpful

you know um

so that's just it's just a

I guess that's what I mean

you know it's

it's just a willingness to say

okay where can I acknowledge vulnerability

where can I acknowledge my own weakness

how by acknowledging that vulnerability or weakness

can you sort of accept it

which is

it itself turns it into its own form of strength right

cause you come to understand yourself better yeah

so that's that's how I try to live my life these days

and that's how I try to

that's what I try to tell the boys too

you know in addition to like

trying to get them to come to my Saturday morning

boxing class which I go to

which is awesome right

but like it's there's just

it's just the Yin and Yang of

of life and and

and from that change from boyhood to manhood yeah

it's you know um

one of the metaphors that

that I like to use is who's the stronger boxer

the guy who has an impenetrable block

or the guy who doesn't have any block at all

he doesn't even need it

because you can just literally wail on the guy

and it doesn't affect him

yeah you know

and that's the difference between

putting all those walls up and

and being vulnerable yeah

and they so

so one of the I've seen a therapist

off and on now for about six or seven years

one of the things that he said that really resonated

this is years ago is he goes

you want the tactile strength of bridges

and his own father was some sort of engineer

I wanna say a civil engineer

which is where he would have Learned about this

do you know much about bridges Shawn

like how they're actually no restricted

OK so okay

I didn't know this either until my therapist and I

I don't know actually I never fact checked this

I just took his word at it

so right

if any engineer I think I'm sure people will chime in

yeah I'll be like

actually that's not quite so he's like

imagine he's like

imagine the Brooklyn Bridge right

and I said OK

I've been across it many times

he's like OK

what do you think that bridge is made of

and is it made of just you know uh

absolute like

tiled in metal

where you cannot turn a screw another inch

or when you look at a bridge

and if you take an area or see me a side view of it

as if as if from a drone were approaching it

he goes if you look at it closely

what you actually see is the bridge moving a little bit

yeah which looks almost scary right

but he's like that's actually intentional

cause it's it's

it's called you know

it's it needs to have a little bit of flexibility

without that flexibility

uh what would happen is the

the construction of it would ultimately just corrode

it would collapse beneath itself

because you're constantly

it's constantly so tense

so it's that what he called the tensile strength of

of bridges is to actually make sure

there's a little bit of fallability built in

yeah and it's so

in other words like to extend the metaphor

a little bit of vulnerability

yeah and I just think that's so true

like if

if we as men spend our entire time like

I'm a tough guy I'm this

I'm that

if all you do is project that image man

you are brittle right

like you will there is nothing you can withstand

if you're constantly tense

but if you allow yourself to accept basically

life and all your

all the entire emotional range that comes with life

I think I'll probably in your better spot

and I don't want a man

I hope that doesn't sound preachy

because it's not as if I always knew this

in fact again

like fatherhood

I would argue I'm still learning this day after day

but it's something I've come to learn

you know somewhat now yeah

I I think that that absolutely ring

that absolutely rings true for me as well and it's like

part of the definition of

masculinity is being a protector

yeah and the

almost trivial version of being a protector

is being a tough guy yeah

right being willing to get in people's faces

being strong you know

I can I can beat anybody up

all of that stuff

and yeah I mean

sometimes

that's what's necessary in order to be a protector

that's certainly what was necessary 30,000 years ago

to be a protector sure

but in our modern world

being a protector is about much more than that

and in fact

often times it's about not being that at all

because

if you're demonstrating this really tough facade

to your to your boy

and that's what you're modeling to them

and that's what they think they need to do

in order to make their way in the world

and a lot of ways

the world is not going to be conducive to that

especially now

and you're gonna I'm not protecting your kid yeah

I also think what you're doing

if you constantly project that image

that you run into conflict with people

who are doing the exact same thing right

you kind of attract it you attract that defensiveness

yes uh

and it just I don't know

I

I I don't wanna sound like old man shouting at clouds

but when I see like

when I go to the gym

and I can see the younger guys who are

you know teenagers or

and I was probably this way too

like when I was a teenager in my 20s

and I can see the guys where it's like

it's all I'm the alpha through here right

yeah and you can almost see man

there's something that

is probably broken inside of you

for you to project it like that

cause there isn't necessarily like a quiet

easy confidence

it's something that it's just it's performative

it's posturing yeah

and they don't even really understand

how silly they look to everyone else

I I used to have this trainer

uh back when I lived in Dallas and and the trainer

he owned this this uh

kind of fancy gym in North Dallas

and he was training me one time

and there were a couple guys in the gym who were

who were who were doing that

kind of making the performative noises and and

and stuff

and he told me this story about he used to train this

uh this old guy

this 74 year old guy but the guy was ripped

and these when he first opened the gym

there were these muscle heads that that were there

and they were doing that making a ton of noise

and they were um

they were doing chest presses with bar

with dumbbells and you know

hundred and ten pound dumbbells and just like no

I'm pushing it up there and then dropping the weights

and you know

you're not supposed to drop the weights

so so my trainer he takes this 74 year old man

over to the bench where they are

and he's very soft spoken guy

very built and he says do you mind if we work in here

and of course the guys are like

yeah yeah

no problem and you know

here they have this 74 year old man

who's now sitting down the bench

he picks up these hundred and ten pound uh

dumbbells and proceeds to do a set of 10 chest presses

using these exact same dumbbells

and then sets them down very gently on the ground

and then my trainer just goes

just nods at him and walks away

that is masculinity to me

that is that's so good

like I I love the NFL

well uh

I have actually a a

a love hate relationship with the NFL

cause I love to watch the NFL

um and I also see like the CTE and I'm like

oh god how many guys are gonna

when I watch Red Zone I'm like

how many of these guys are gonna end up in 10 years

you know like unable to move

but what I tell my own boys is like

what I remember from my youth

do you remember this what

what Barry Sanders would do

every time he'd score a touchdown

I don't know he just hand the ball to the ref

why because it was expected

like Barry

of course he's got Barry Sanders is basically like

of course I'm gonna score a touchdown

why should I celebrate that

yeah oh

that is so powerful I absolutely that's like

I love it it was like the ultimate flex

here you go I'm gonna go back to sidelines now yeah

we we talked a little bit about your um

your journalism

your journalism career and and ESPN stuff like that

you know

one of the things I just absolutely admire about you is

um it seems to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong

but it seems to me you looked around and realized that

journalism was collapsing

yeah and

and I can just imagine what you were going through

and just like I gotta figure something out here

and you reinvented yourself

and you reinvented yourself essentially

just by putting your craft out there

and inviting the world to comment on it and and

and experience it

and experience the world through your eyes

and that gave rise in my view to some really

really amazing storytelling

what oh

thank you

what what did that season in your life

and how did you think about that

and how what did that teach you about courage and

and failure and resilience and

and modeling that for your kids

well so I got laid off from ESPN when I was 40

I'm 44 now about to turn 45

and so what I could tell you is these

I Learned far more about myself

the last five years than I did in the first forty yeah

far more myself

and like one of the first things you learn

or I Learned

uh

okay so let me sort of set up the mind that like what

what my wife and I were thinking we

it wasn't

it wasn't hard to see that the magazine style

the magazine journalism I loved that I grew up adoring

that I thought I would do for quite a while

like come 20 2010

2012 certainly by like 2015 I was like

I don't know

so sure how much longer this is gonna be around

so I start to pivot at that point

just thinking about like what else could I do

and I thought well if I stay in corporate media

I'm just gonna basically be like jumping from you know

um

thawing iceberg to thawing iceberg right um

and I don't know how much longer I'm gonna keep myself

from above water

if I do that yeah

but maybe if I try to go out on my own

I'll be on a little bit like better Terra firma

and so what I began to think about like was what what

what would that look like

so I put I began to put in place

what I really started to do is put myself

through my own MBA like okay

well what does it mean to like go out on your own

and and

and what I Learned and I would say this to anybody

this isn't just relative to the creative types

though I would say this is particularly true to

to creative types you can take your existing skill

set and figure out the ways in which

it's applicable to the marketplace

so I had for instance what what did that mean for me

well um

it meant starting a newsletter first off

just so people would start to know who I am

and at first

it was gonna be in promotion of my first book

which was called The Sabbath Tour

and I quickly realized that like

like

if if I if I just promote the book week after week

nobody wants to read that

nobody wants to tune in for the commercials yeah

nobody wants that

so then so then like around like week 3

I pivot to well maybe I could sort of like

tell them what I had Learned

because I I had not only by that point

been like a writer and editor

but I had Learned from I had the good fortune

be published in The New Yorker and Esquire

and my my my agent was the former editor in chief

of Esquire magazine David Granger

who in the magazine world is like an absolute giant

like he's on the Mount Rushmore of

of giants in that field and so

what I basically started to do in the newsletter was

like okay

well

just like here's I was I was approaching for is like

here's what I've Learned right

and it's just like little hints and tips

and if you're doing this

consider that like here's how you do interviews

here's how you can consider writing an opening

like here's how you consider can doing a structure

and it started to you know

I don't want to say take off

because I don't have like hundreds of thousands of

of subscribers but there is like a dedicated audience

like there's people when I looked even today at

you know most

most of the time you'll get a um

you'll get an open I'm on substack now

but like

and it doesn't really matter what platform you're on

you'll get like

an open rate of something like 20 to 40%

mine has consistently been above like 50% for years

and it's again it's not a massive audience

but it's just like the people who come to it

like really do want to know this stuff and they want

and they check in week after week

so that was helpful and then from there I was like okay

well that's cool

and then like I started to get emails from people like

wait can you go deeper on this subject or that subject

and so that created that LED me to think well

what if I actually created like a digital course

and so by the time I get laid off

I'm like okay

well what if I started this digital course

and this course is called the storytelling you

and we're I actually have to revamp it a little bit now

um because it's like

the idea of just like doing stuff for long

form journalism like that is itself like

I gotta gear it more toward now

like entrepreneurship and maybe like um

book writing but be that as it may like it

it launched it

and I had cohorts and you were one of them

you you took it at one point

that's that's great thank you

and but it was just basically like

here's how to

here's how to do the things that I've Learned right

and then it's like okay

how else can I be helpful to people

um and I was like

well I've I have published uh two books uh

uh

like a couple of years ago and people were like

how do you write a book proposal

and so I started to help people with that

and then because I had experience

like I I was both writing my own books

and then helping to shape other books um

you know

like the memoirs of like famous people and what not

and couple of them have done really well

you know on the times best seller list

and so now it's like okay

well I can help other people do that

I guess my point here is that I never thought to myself

well actually I

I never thought to myself okay

I'm gonna just like completely reinvent myself

I thought how can I take my existing skill set

and basically figure out like

are there things that people would want

you know like

are there things that people desire are

do I know something that's just

maybe a little bit more advanced than what somebody

else knows and if so

would they pay for the privilege of learning

more about that or me helping them directly with that

right and I still like my

my primary focus is still writing books

I've had a little bit of good fortune with Hollywood

so now I also oscillate between writing books and like

production and and uh

and screenplays and whatnot

but when I'm not doing that

like the majority of my time these days is

is spent either

trying to consult people in a group setting

like what the storytelling you is

or consult people one on one with like books and

you know I'm not gonna say it's easy

but oh my god like that transition there was Sean

like there were some times

especially right around 2020

2021 when it was really scary cause I didn't

I never done this before

it took so it took so much to figure out how can I

how can I get past my own fear frankly

like honestly I still deal with that

I have this tendency to what if and

and just and just throw out endless contingencies right

um endless possibilities

and the what ifs can go two ways

the what ifs can go wow

what if this really goes right

and sometimes I'm on this high

I'm like wow

this could lead to

this could lead to this and other times

like if if I get a

in a bad run or like

a couple of deals don't go the way

I'm hoping they will couple of

you know arrangements with clients or whatever

or they back out or whatever um

then I can start to catastrophize

and even today five years later

I'm like okay

is that real or is that just a fear speaking

so you know

this is I'm sorry

a little bit of a soliloquy

but but like when you asked

you know what is it like

and I said well

I've Learned far more about myself than anything else

these last five years I've really Learned what it means

like to stare down fear and even leave aside that

like look deep within myself and say

what is it that is what is

where is that emotion coming from

what is what is motivating that emotion

is it real can I counter that emotion

if so how

journaling prayer

meditation sometimes a session with my therapist right

like whatever the case may be

and that's like

I think I've heard this from other entrepreneurs

and frankly people who are more successful than me

like you know

um make more money than I do though no

money shouldn't be the only marker

and they say that it's a good way to keep score

it's at least a number yeah

um

but what they talk about is something that I think is

really true in the end

like

it isn't so much about creating the business

as it is creating the sort of true self right

like creating the thing that's like

able to stare past that thing

that stare that really scares you

and what's on the other side of that

and what's it like to live out in that no man's land

and you know

how do you begin to navigate out there

I I really

I've for all of its tribulations

and there have been quite a few the past

you know five years

there have been a lot there's been success too

and I I've just really come to enjoy it

I get why my dad has been a farmer for

you know like 50+ years professionally right right

yeah it

it's almost like you took

you turned a career in

in journalism into a career in authenticity

oh thank you man

that's that's kind yeah

yeah I

I think I mean I

I think if part of the reason you get such a a

a great open rate on your newsletter is

and I'm I'm a member I

I read your newsletter

and that's what it drips with authenticity

you're just sharing your journey

and it's you're the character

and it is it is

you have a craft a storytelling craft

very good

and you're telling your own story in that newsletter

and it's really powerful and it's fun to watch

and it's and you get good

information out of it too

you can apply it to your own life wow

I yeah I could see how I could do that too

and it's yeah it's really fun

it's it's it's really great

it's a really great read well

thank you if I could just say like

there's something applicable here

to anybody else who's listening and thinking about

how do I wanna try to do something

I think I'm a big fan of chronicling kind of your point

Sean like you chronicle your own life

and if you have the courage to put that on the page

not just the triumphs because honestly

like like I've

the the times that I've gotten far more

responses from readers has been like

the times where like I'm like

I'm in a I don't I'm in a bad

I'm in a sort of an uncertain spot right now

and I'll put that in the newsletter right

and I'll be like this is what's holding me up this week

right and then the emails that those weeks are they've

they're they're just like far more voluminous

and that's amazing like yeah yeah yeah

and I'll bet you're really supportive

yeah exactly

and I do

I think it's because like people want to come back

the idea of authenticity

it's so easy to say

yeah I

I had the good fortune of

one of the story that I wrote this year

a couple years ago was made into a movie

this year and I talked about that in the newsletter

and people were like oh

that's great

but then like when I also said like two weeks later

you know what it hasn't like I'm the same guy

I thought it was gonna make me better and now I'm like

oh shit like I'm the same guy with the same problems

which I also wrote about like again

somewhere between 2 weeks to 1 month later

like that email got way more responses

than I'm making this awesome movie

yeah there is a lesson there

yeah

to close that thought out

I think that it's because

we are drawn far more to each other's flaws

than we are our best features

I think like when somebody actually says

this is who I am warts and all

it just sounds true

because the easiest thing to say is

I did this thing and it's awesome right

um it's much harder to say

and I see

and I don't even want it to sound self congratulatory

but the thing I've Learned in like I

when I've been interviewing others

what I'm always trying to get to is what my good friend

right Thompson

who I who I used to work with at ESPN

he calls the gripe

and the gripe is the moment when like he in

he's interviewed a lot of like very success

he's done like stories on Michael Jordan right

but the gripe is okay yeah

you're great but like

what's the thing that's actually bothering you

right now yeah

and the gripe can be something external

it can be something internal

but once you get to the gripe

then it starts to become real

because now you're relating to somebody else on like

an individual level where the pain

like everybody feels pain

everybody feels vulnerability in some way

and so that's the thing that you wanna try to relay

as a storyteller and again

like whenever possible

part of the reason I don't shy away from that

is because I know like

I know the gripe works right

so if I'm gonna if I'm gonna relay my own gripe in the

in the in the additions of the newsletter

then you know

I know that like

people probably relate to it

yeah and we have this

social media culture that is the opposite of that

like it's all about showing your world in a way

that is perfect

and I guess that's popular too for a different reason

but but the authenticity is way more powerful

yeah I think so yeah

now

you and your wife are raising interracial sons

in a world that

I think tries to weaponize identity somewhat yeah

um how do you manage that

and I mean

you know how do you think about that as a father

and how do you make

how do you keep your sons from becoming

a victim of that

well that's a great question

I mean they have a lot of questions these days

they're 14 the boys in particular

and our daughter's 16 the boys are 14

so we've always told them

Sonia's LED the charge here that you are biracial yes

but America is gonna very likely see you as black

because they're going to see you as something that is

other than white it's yeah

not white is the is the yeah

yeah and so like it's the

it's the you know

it's almost the antebellum era one drop rule right

like one drop of black means you're black those

there's some that thinking

certainly not those actions

but that thinking still exists like oh

that's that guy's

you know not so I don't I mean

the kids can identify themselves however we want to

that's what I try to tell them

but like I we've also stressed to them

you know America's gonna see you as not white and

you know you know

I think in a like 10 maybe 15 years

America will be a a not white majority I don't

I'd have to look at the census data to to verify that

but it's coming but they're gonna very yeah

they're gonna very quickly feel maybe even less uh

other than they do right now um

what I would say that's kind of remarkable is

so the identity thing has had its ebbs and flows

like we're married in Dallas in 2007

a former Jim Crow state

nobody cares like when we were dating

this is you know

the Deep South this is Texas

nobody cares who we are yeah

now when we move from uh Dallas to Boston

especially as we're going through like

some parts of rural Tennessee

and we I remember one day in particular

where we were gonna stop to go get a burger

we left within like 30 seconds of walking in

cause it was just obvious

the stares we were getting

that we were not welcome there wow

so like there's been these

but also like when we move out to Boston

we're going through we're like oh

we we go and we look at a place in South Boston

um to rent and the real estate agent who's helping us

she's like I actually wouldn't if I were you

if I were you too I wouldn't rent here

which is shocking

because there was nobody in Dallas who said

you know you can't live in any neighborhood but in

but in Liberal most Boston

there were still it was still sort of this these con

these enclaves where it was

you know tribal and um yeah

I so we dealt with that but like really like

like oh gosh

it's 2025 now

so like 2017 after Trump's elected the first time

there was definitely this divide between

are you on the side of I

I should say I'm just gonna state my identity

like my political identity

like I'm a moderate Liberal to sort of classic Liberal

and there was this push among the left

like how are you going to identify yourself

and we at first were like

we're just gonna

sort of hold the same values that we've always had

but we saw how identity began to take more and more

come more and more the fore

and people that were to the left of us

suddenly began to make identity

like a core sort of feature

to the point where it became its own segregation

and that's where we didn't really like it

you know like yeah

um you would see

I have to I don't remember exact

I think it was Oberlin

maybe it was NYU who had segregated uh

dining areas right

in their cafeterias this is in like 20 2017

yeah yep

um after George Floyd is killed

and there's a whole George Floyd story

that ties in with my own and Sonia's

but after George Floyd is killed

this white woman approaches me

like of the progressive left

and she's like

I just don't know how you can raise black sons right

now not meaning like

like she's literally saying

I don't know how you

as a white man can raise your own sons

which I had to walk it was a dinner party

and I had to literally like walk out of the room for

because I was about to explode at her right

so um

so that was a thing but then also it has honestly like

I felt that that sort of the peak woke era

I feel like we're past it

and I feel that there's I feel that there's the

I don't see

I don't feel myself and I don't think Sony does either

such an emphasis on race and identity as we saw

you know five years ago

but you know

I wrote you have to be prepared to die

before you can begin to live

for the kids in large measure

because I wanted them to see that like

there are people who look like you

who dealt with situations that are

far worse than your own

and that segregation that they faced

like you're facing a form of it today

either from you know

all right form like the

the bullshit of like

Nick Fuentes and all those people on the

the edge lords on the rights

like that's ridiculous and toxic

and I really hope that the conservatives

really get rid of that cause I hope

there's no home for that in American discourse

but if there is then like

my God what does that say about America

but in any case like if that's

if that actually is gonna run its course

in the same way that wokeness has run its course

on the left I feel

I'm hopeful that in the future

we can come to something that resembles kind of like

the way that Sonny and I were

again in the Deep South in like 2004

2005 through like 2015

which is just like nobody really cared

you know

like it was just kind of like you are who you are

yeah it was almost like

and I I was in Dallas around that same time

and it felt like Dallas was aware of its identity

as a former slave state

as part of the Jim Crow South and all of that

and celebrated opportunities to demonstrate that

that isn't the case anymore

yeah and that was

been nice to get back to that yeah

yeah I mean

like the Dallas that I knew 20 years ago

was the home of an evangelical pastor

like TD Jakes I think right after we moved from Dallas

it had its first I know it had its first um uh

Hispanic woman become the sheriff

while we were still there

wow

and then I think it had its first black police chief

I think right after anyway

my point is that like to your point Shawn

it

it was fully aware of its past

and seemed to try to move past that

and you know

it's honestly like

there are still some Liberal enclaves where

at least that we see now that we live in the northeast

where it's kind of

still a little bit stifling and annoying

but even then like on the whole

it's not the same

2025 is not the same place as it was in 2020

yeah I totally agree with you there

okay so I

wanna share a quick story

about something that happened last week

with my son and I wanna get your feeling about it

cause I didn't man

I did not know how to deal with it

and uh

so I'll share the story and then I wanna

I wanna know what you think

and then I'll tell you what I actually did

OK um

our school the my

my son's school is it's a great school

it's really close I can walk him to school

it's great

and they do this fundraiser thing

and there's a private company that comes in

and it does this fundraiser

and I actually don't know what percentage

of the funds they take but I doubt it's small

yeah and you know

you're

you're supposed to sponsor them on a per lap basis

and if you sponsor them at $3 a lap

then then they get this prize and if it's $2 a lap

it's this prize and

and they're supposed to raise money this way

and it turns they create

it turned into this freaking competition

between the kids about who can basically

convince their parents to sponsor them enough and

or shame their parents into sponsoring them enough

and the whole thing was so disgusting to me

that my wife and I decided

that we just weren't gonna participate

and I mean we've given money to the school

we've donated money to school directly to school

you want me to donate money to school

I'll do that

but I'm not gonna participate in this little charade

and so

this is a principal stand that we decided to take

and my son came home last Thursday

and he was very upset

and he was saying to me

he was trying to convince me that it's not too late

you know

they ran the race that day and it's not too late

you can still sponsor and all of this stuff

it's only $3 and I said to him I said listen

it's not $3 it's $3 a lap lake um

how many laps did you run

I ran 46 laps OK

what's three times 46

and he told me and I said

that's how much money you're asking me

to sponsor you for and that's fine

but the school doesn't even get all that money

and I'm opposed to it and he got really

really upset and he says

I'm so sorry and he ran out of the room screaming

and then I

I went out or crying and I went over to him and I said

I sat him down and he said to me

I go what why is this so important to you buddy

yeah and he goes well

the other kids in the class

they all got prizes and they're kind of bullying me

and they're making fun of me for not having a prize

and I got absolutely livid and I don't

I don't get that mad very often

but I was really mad at this point

and of course I'm not mad at him

I'm mad at the school and

and I'm sort of mad at myself also because this

my principal stance

caused my kid to have to endure this bullshit

yeah and uh

so that's the that's the preamble

what would you do what

how would you think about that

what would you do

or what would you advise me to do in that circumstance

oh um

well what immediately

springs to my mind is a somewhat similar situation

I was on our town's

Little League board in large measure

because there were some dads

and maybe you've run into them Sean

who took Little League very seriously

oh yeah right

uh and it's pretty easy to see why right

cause they see

their own success and failure in their son's eyes

yeah uh

and so I'm on that board

and trying to act as almost like a counter agent

and one day the head of the board is like okay

we're gonna do our raffle ticket

and we want to raise this much money

now the board that

that literally like

the league itself is actually separate from the town

which I grew up in

where like the town was kind of like

the town and the school was kind of like

one in the same with respect to sort of

the extracurricular sports that they'd have

so that was its first disconnect

but I'm like okay

whatever like our

our town's bigger than the one in which I grew up

so that's fine yeah um

but then I got a chance in the subsequent board meeting

to say okay

well they're like

we want to raise $15,000 because we have to

you know

keep the we have to keep the upkeep to the fields

we've got all this offseason stuff and I'm like

at first I was like okay

that makes sense we're gonna do this raffle

and it's the same

sort of thing as what you're describing

kids having to go around it's just basically like

you know

you gotta spend 20 bucks here and you're trying to

each kid is trying to raise something like 300

400 bucks and I'm like okay

that's you know

it's whatever right

that's kind of a lot but whatever

um'cause you're already you're already

you know if your kid plays baseball

those baseball bats themselves

even if the kids like in third grade

those baseball bats run for like 300 bucks now

it's ridiculous right

yeah and then you're

you're paying for the leagues and everything

it's crazy there's league fees

and now there's all this raffle stuff

and so it's just like

for something where it's just supposed to be fun

now you're dropping maybe 15

maybe two grand you know

just and I have two kids too

so you know

always double the expense anyway

I'm like okay

I'm begrudgingly gonna go along with the raffle right

until I find out

that the league itself has a separate savings account

that has something like 80 grand in it

and they're just letting the money sit there and grow

and I'm like we're not some sort of endowment

like we don't what are we

what is this for

if we're not like spending that money down

like why do we even need to do a raffle

like if the and I asked the

I asked some I asked a guy I knew

so

how much is the upkeep for the field in the offseason

he's like uh

we could probably do it for like 5,000 I'm like

well why are we why are we doing this to the parents

we're we're looking to raise somewhere between again

like 10 to 20 thousand dollars cumulatively like well

we just want to make sure we have enough I'm like

we have enough right um

and so I didn't I didn't have the boys participate

even though I was one of the coaches yeah

which set off its own sort of like between

so now there's a riff between me and the other dads

which had existed anyway

because I like refused to run that line of I'm

gonna make sure he starts and all this

all this other stuff right

um but now there's the other thing that oh

you know

kicks his he's stuck up he does or whatever it is right

he's not even gonna participate in the raffle and I

and I took this stand and sort of was an

I've ostracized a little bit from the league

but the boys they had a rough go too

they're like how come

you know their own team is like

how they're bringing the raffle sales

and boys don't have any

and they're like yeah

we and I just

I just said to the other kids

I'm like yeah

we chose not to do it this year

um but I know that there was a little bit of sniping

that the boys had to deal with separately

and they came to me like why did we do this

like why did you have to take this principal stand

yeah and honestly

I didn't have a very good answer aside from

I think it's stupid for them to do that

even though I knew that like

it was something that now they would have to endure

yeah um

socially right

yeah and it wasn't

there were prizes

there were other kids on other teams and

and some of their friends on other teams

and some of their

some of their teammates on our own team

like the top prize was like an iPad or something right

for like selling the most raffles right

so like wow

it's a it's a it's

it's not it's not like here's a pair of

here's a wristband Timmy

it's you know

here's a brand new iPad so which was it

so I

felt even more principled in my opposition after that

absolutely wait

that's a thousand dollar prize give me a break

so I how would I advise you

oh

I still wonder today if I did the right thing

what I can tell you is 4+ years later

in ways large and small

my boys I hope and cause I see this in them

they seem to have a better bullshit detector

than other kids and they seem to realize that oh

there are times when like

some of this stuff is just stupid peer pressure stuff

and I don't need to do that if I don't wanna do it

and they can take a stand against it

now of course they're still teenagers

so like it's super hard to be outside a peer group

and I'm gonna take a principal stand here

you know I'm just saying that I think that

in ways large and small like that choice then

and a few other signing I've made

has sort of set an example for

you know like sometimes the crowd is wrong

and sometimes

you should be in opposition to that crowd

and you know you gotta kind of state why it's wrong

and stick by what what you believe

even if there are consequences for it yeah

I don't know is that helpful in any way

yeah yeah

no I think that's that's issue

cause you and I ended up doing the same thing

and I so at that that night my

my wife had an event early in the evening

and I had an event later

and we were kind of doing a handoff from the kids

and just meeting uh um

uh on the go

and it was actually in our cars

and I rolled down my window

and she rolled down her window

and I was still very animated about this at this time

and I said to her I said

this thing just happened lake told me this um

and and this is what happened

and I got I got really

really upset um

and I want you to go up there and talk to him about it

and and

you know hear

hear what he has to say um

I wish I had the time to do it

but here's I don't want him to go to school tomorrow

I I'll take him to Legoland or something

I'll take the day off of work

and I'll take him to Legoland and um

and next year when this event comes around again

we'll take him out for the whole week

I don't feel like he should have to endure

bullying or even what he perceives is bullying

um for my principal stance

and so

we just won't go to school while this is going on

and everyone else can have it and

and but I'm not taking him

I'm not gonna make him endure it and I'm gonna

I'm gonna take him out of school

and he and I ended up uh

going

uh we got a little bit of a late start to the day

but we went to Legoland

got there around 11:00am and spent the day there

and it ended up being just this magical day

between just him and me and it was great

and he didn't have to go through that stuff

and we had a we had a talk about um

I said that I felt like this

fundraising thing was a scam

and we don't participate in scams and it's a gray area

and some people feel that way and some people don't

but this is the way we feel about it

and I'm sorry that as a result of that decision

you had to endure some hardship

but that's life sometimes

and I'll try to minimize it for you

yeah yeah

how did he respond uh

he was freaking thrilled

because he didn't have to go to school

he got to go to Legoland hahaha

do you think it

do you think the message you tried to relay resonated

I don't know he's 6 years old

yeah and so

you know I mean

it's hard to know what he absorbs

I I

I feel like the broad strokes are the parts

that I can really try to get through now and um

and I think maybe he got it

yeah yeah

they get more than you you think they do

I think that's so true Jim Henson

said a line that I think about all the time

he's like

your kids will almost never pick up what you say

but they will

they are watching every single thing you do yes

yes that's

that's exactly the deal yeah

so I you know

look as somebody who himself said

screw you crowd like I'm like

you did the right thing Sean

but again maybe I'm biased here

I think I did too and we'll find out

I mean the we

you can't just take your kid out of school

in California they

they frown on that and um

and so you have to get an excuse for the absence

and too many unexcused absences is a big problem

and you know

it's truancy and they'll come after you for that

and it's a little it

I mean I understand the spirit in which it's intended

but it also kind of creates some problems like this

and um

so we had to tell the school

why we were keeping him out of school

and were you honest with the school

yes and my instinct was to just say

he's out of school today

we're taking a mental health day or something like that

and my wife was like no

we're gonna use the term bullying

we're gonna say this and we're gonna

we're gonna give him the principal

I was like okay

haha and that's

and that's what we did and uh

you know they had

they never responded to us and it's um

we'll see what happens his uh

today is literally the Monday after that

and so there's no school today

and there's no school tomorrow for Veterans Day

and so the first time he's going to be at school again

is gonna be Wednesday

and I'm sure all this is gonna be died

it'll be all forgotten by then and so

and that's the by design

yeah kids move on real fast

oh yeah

especially at that age you know

yeah yeah

and that'll be an interesting lesson

I I I might try to touch back with him and say

hey listen you know

remember last week

the biggest thing in the world was this thing about the

the prize and now nobody cares

like there's a lesson in that

yeah I think you're right

yeah well

I always like to close these discussions with uh

the same question of everybody

I'm gonna put you on the spot

give me one principle that you admire

or like to live your life by

uh on the uh on the subject of raising boys into men

uh I like uh a line from Luke chapter 17

I don't remember the verse but uh

Jesus says something like

remember that the kingdom of god is within you

and I love that because what it means to me is

we are streaked with the divine

and if we honor that divinity within us

we allow we we lead not only our our

our best life we lead out our life's purpose

as somebody like Ralph Waldo Emerson would have put it

but I think that that streak of divinity

that light starts to shine outward

and hopefully

people start to see in ways large and small oh

I can do what I need to do with my life too

and you know

like that's

that's what I hope the boys will pick up um

from more than anything from

from the way I've raised them

you know like

I have it within me to lead the life that I'm

that is my purpose

yeah I

I think that's a relatively

underappreciated aspect of Christianity

that we were made in God's image

yeah and it doesn't say that we're just like God

it says that we're made in his image

which is by definition an imperfect image right

and you know I

I think the message of that is that

you want to strive for that

recognizing that it is

the striving that is a value there

as opposed to the actual attainment of it

because the attainment is impossible

yeah I think

I think completely yeah

yeah yeah

I think that yeah it's

it's to it's

it's um if

look

there are a lot of secular interpretations of that too

and I think that of that line um

but there was this uh

but but that

that has been increasingly

something by which I live my own life

and I

don't really talk about my own Christian faith much

unless people ask but yeah um

but I just let it sort of be known

you know like that's

it's one of the

that is like a guiding principle that I live by

you know remember that

remember that the kingdom of God is within you

that it just it just lights me up every time

I think that anytime you're having a bad day

anytime something's you know

going good or ill just like okay

how can I best respond to this moment with courage

compassion everything else

yeah I think that's uh

that's amazing I think that's a wonderful place uh

to leave off Paul

thank you so much for uh

sharing your stories and

and your perspective and your authenticity

um I just I

I love hearing about this stuff and about your journey

I love reading your newsletter and uh

it's just uh

it's been an absolute pleasure uh

to to speak with you today

oh I wish you the best of luck with this

with this podcast and and everything else you're doing

and stay in touch for real man

like I thank you so much

I absolutely will you'll uh

you'll definitely hear from me

uh Paul Kicks is a storyteller

a journalist and just on all around Fantastic Man

his newsletter

about the craft of storytelling is absolutely amazing

um you should definitely join it

uh the link is in the show notes uh Paul

again

thank you so much for taking the time to join me on

Raising Men

awesome

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino