but we have to control what we can control

and what we can control is

how we show up in relationship

can our son see that we're emotional

can our son see that we're vulnerable

can our son see that we're scared

that we're mad that we're happy

us guys aren't very good at expressing happiness

unless our sports team is winning

what about

what about all the other times when we're having happy

but we're too cool to to look out of control and happy

welcome back to raising men

I'm joined today by somebody whose work has shaped

countless fathers and families

and conversations about modern masculinity

Todd Adams

Todd is the executive director of Men Living and co

host of the Zen Parenting Radio podcast

and a long time advocate for what he calls

conscious masculinity Todd

thanks so much for joining

thank you Sean

excited to be here

so let's talk about conscious masculinity

why it is what

what is it and why does it matter

uh how do I start

um so

I heard a Ted talk a while back

by a guy named Tony Porter

he runs an organization on the east coast

actually all over the place

and uh

it's about healthy masculinity

and he presented a framework to me

that I'd never heard before

but he did not come up with it

but um

the first I heard

of it was on his TikTok and he talked about the man box

OK

so there are plenty of examples out there in society of

um

what masculinity means and I think everybody

has their own interpretation of that for me

masculinity means that we are sometimes stoic

and sometimes strong and sometimes determined

and sometimes singularly focused

and there's other times when we are soft

and gentle and nurturing

I think when we showed up as boys

Sean you and I both identify as men

when we showed up we were actually more emotional

than our female counterparts

they've literally done studies scientifically

boys are actually more emotionally expressive

than young women and then

you know as toddlers and young adolescents

but then society grabs a hold of us and says no

this is the one way to be a man

and being being a man means you gotta be tough

you gotta be athletic as you get older

you gotta make a lot of money

you gotta have a lot of sexual partners

um I am based on how big my house is

and I call that like that's a version of the man box

the man box is um

there's one narrow lens of what it means to be a man

and that means to be tough

to be impenetrable think about

you know the movies and pop culture that we see

of what the typical prototypical man is

yeah whether it's superheroes or whatever

it's just a bunch of guys that are just uh

super strong and super determined and show no weakness

and go alone often huh

go it alone boys don't cry

all of the above so

um your question was what's conscious masculinity

it's it's a

a more expansive version of what it means to be a man

and um

what I see on TV and from our leadership

whether it's corporate or political um

there's there's not a whole lot of other

ways to be in this life

other than to be stoic and to be in invulnerable

so that's my two cents yeah

no I think that is

you know the

the the metaphor that I've used to describe

that sort of thing is

you know we've sort of traditionally when I grew up

masculinity was all about

imagine you're a castle and it was

it's all about how thick your walls are yeah

and and

but in reality

I think that masculinity is about how much

they can enclose

how much they can protect and how much they can provide

how much they can how how

how inclusive the walls are

meaning how big of a village can you have in there

yeah and it's funny yeah

go ahead as

as you say that I didn't thought

I didn't think I was gonna jump in the deep end here

but let me go ahead and do that anyway

so there's a framework out there called the 4

male archetypes and

in the four male archetypes there's um

it's a Carl Jung um

concept he had a whole bunch of different archetypes

but there was a book out there called king warrior

magician lover

and the one you're talking about is

the castle and the kingdom

and that is a very

important part of what it means to be a man

which is to provide right

like as men

we want to be able to provide not just money

but provide

with our emotional bandwidth and things like that

so that's one of the four male archetypes

the king then we got the warrior

which is the one I talked about

the impenetrable the

the stoic one the strong

but and then we got the magician

which is the one who thinks

so a king sees and blesses um

a warrior gets stuff done

a magician thinks

but then we forget about that fourth architect

which is the lover and the lover feels

the lover allows himself to be hurt

the lover exposes himself the

the lover will um

express his um gratitude

his emotion

his love for all the different people in his life

and we just don't hear about that one very often

so I'm just trying to bring a little bit more balance

cause there's times when I am in my warrior

but there's this whole other part of who I am

that isn't allowed to be brought up to the surface

because society doesn't think that that

belongs and I'm just trying to change that narrative

yeah I think that's a that's really important work

and and so tell me

you know specifically for fathers raising boys today

what how

what do you think that awareness actually looks like

day to day how do you how do you make that a practice

um it's a great question

and let me just kind of expand it to just like

being a parent

cause I've been doing a podcast with my wife

for 15 years and um

at at

in my journey of talking to a bunch of groups

and what it means to be a good parent

and how do we become a good parent

a lot of questions get asked of my wife and I

and they'll be like well

tell me what to say when my kid is whatever

you know you just found out your

your teenage boy is watching porn or um

what do I say when they get a d on a grade or whatever

and what we say to our kids is a lot less important

than I ever thought it was

when I showed up as a parent

I have three daughters 22

20 and 18

and I thought what I said to them was really important

it's not as important as I thought it was

no what it is for me and this is a very uh

non scientific concept one that I came up with

uh it may or

may not land with your audience

but it's 60 30 10 so it's 100% 60% of his modeling

forget about everything else

if you want your son to be a kind person

be a kind person yeah

if you want your son to read books

read books if you want your son

to not use weed and not to get drunk

then don't use weed and don't get drunk

that is where I spend the majority of my time parenting

cause I I

I'll let out a secret

you're teaching your kid what

whether you know it or not

you're teaching them every single day

you want them to have a good relationship

with their partner then

figure out how to navigate conflict in a healthy way

with your life partner that's the best way to do it

so that's 60% of my energy

thirty percent of my energy is

in what way am I spending time with my kid

how what energy am I setting a boundary

am I setting a boundary to be a jerk

or am I setting a boundary saying hey

I understand why you're interested in

seeing naked girls on your

on your iPad but here's the deal guy

there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff on that

that is just simply not true

and there's a lot of stuff on that that is um

it's actually toxic about

and it's demeaning towards human beings

especially the women in those videos so it's

not what you say it's how you say

and then the last 10% is the words you're actually

giving to them so that's my 60

30 10 model

I think that's absolutely right

I and I uh

the modeling stuff is so important

you just need to be the man you want your son to be

yeah and that

that handles the lion share of it

yeah and I think and

and it's the fountainhead of it all too it

it everything else flows from that

because

as you're being the man you want your son to be

that's going to result

in establishing appropriate boundaries

in the appropriate way

and how to say things in a way that

that is that is fruitful

and it will allow you to select that last 10%

also select the appropriate words and and

and say things the right way as well and

and so it really just starts I

I find you know

we do a lot on on this podcast

I do a lot of talking with people about

you know I

ultimately our goal is to raise excellent men right

and there's the the

the No. 1 rule associated with that

is to be an excellent man

yeah and it's tricky because we

uh if we're lucky

we had a father growing up and their

their dad brought them up in this world

I think that we as human beings

the goal is for us to evolve a little bit

so hopefully

I'm a slightly better dad than my dad was to me

that's right and hopefully

my dad is a slightly better dad than his grand

than his dad was to him yep

and for me it's like just recognizing my own baggage

so like growing up

it's hard being a human being on this planet

and I acquired a bunch of baggage growing up

from my mom from my dad

from society and one thing that I wanna do is

investigate my own reactivity

investigate my own baggage

investigate all these

things that brought me to be who I am

and not to pass the bad stuff down

pass the good stuff down to our kids

but you know

a lot of dads will say to me

well when I was

when I was their age

I wasn't doing this and I turned out just fine

and my question is always like

are we sure we turned out as fine as we think we did

because there's always an opportunity for me to grow

as a husband to grow as a father

and I think too often

there's a lot of moms and dads out there that are just

um taking the

their own things that they haven't quite resolved

and passing it down to their kids

without looking in the mirror

and looking at themselves

and I know that can come out sounding harsh

but if we're not doing our own personal growth work

then how can we possibly ask our kids to do that

moreover I think that in the past

things changed a lot more slowly

and so I think that my father had a different he

he was in a different world than his father was in

but it wasn't that much different

80% was the same but my son is growing up into a world

that is so radically different

from the one that I grew up in

that the lessons are just not the same

my paradigms are absolutely not the same

and it is and I the part of the

my motivation for even having these conversations

is in recognizing that I

I don't know what to do yeah

how old is your son my son is 6 okay yeah

so you're catching him nice and early

but yeah I mean

to your point Sean

I totally agree

like I'm holding up my phone right now to the camera

right that's a game changer in

in probably in in the worst way

now there's some

some good parts about it too

I mean it's a tool and tools can be good and bad

it's good and bad and um

a lot of parents come to me and they're like

oh my kid is addicted to their iPad

and kid is addicted to their phone

now I will say

what did I do this morning

I woke up and I went to work

and I've been in front of my screen all

day that's right

I'm talking to you in front of my screen

I'm about to do a podcast in front of my wife

in front of my screen

so it's really not about the screens

it's how am I engaging with this technology

and you can say well

this is my job and I'm productive

but just own the fact that I I

I can't own the fact for anybody else

I am also addicted to my screen

sometimes it's in my YouTube algorithm

sometimes because I work too much

but I am addicted to my screen

and if we as parents

can look at that first

before we start telling our kids

how to manage their own addiction to the technology

and it's a whole to your point Sean

it's a completely different world

and we cannot experience the world the way our kids do

because

it's completely different than when we were growing up

it goes back to the modeling right

you can't sit there and stare at your phone

telling your child not to get off his iPad

yeah and expect that they're gonna actually do it

in fact every time you say that

you're losing credibility with them

and they know it and they know it

they feel it they know it

they're smarter than we give them credit for

you know I I like to say that they're

they're it's like they're prisoners

you like in a jail and we're the we're the we're the

jailers

and the prisoners have all the time in the world

yeah to figure out how to escape

and how to watch and see the patterns

and all of that stuff and I don't have any time at all

I wake up and I go to work and I

I have to do all that stuff

and my son just sits there and he gets to watch

and he gets to figure out how to

how to do what he's gonna do

no doubt you know I I you know a lot of

moving on that theme many

dads didn't grow up with emotionally available

male role models most of us yeah

and and yet

somehow we have to figure out how to lead emotionally

while still learning that ourselves

and how do we do that

it's a great question actually

that's I know

we're gonna talk a little bit about the organization

that I co founded

and I'm an executive director of um

it's called Men Living and

and I'll take say more about it

but basically it's a

it's a virtual and in person space for guys to connect

authentically and vulnerably

that's in essence what it is that we're trying to do

and it came from a weekend I had with my buddies

so I was in my early 30s

and I went on a golf weekend with my buddies

and we did all the things that guys do

on golf weekends we gambled we drank we golfed

I came home exhausted I get home my wife is like

how was the weekend I said it's great

she said how are the guys

I said they're great she's like

what's going on with them

I'm like they're great

she's like no

no no

what's happening in their lives

and I'm like they're great

she's like Todd

am I speaking a different language

what are they what's and Sean

I shit you not I spent 72 hours with these guys

who I went to college with

I've known over 10 years and I didn't have a single

moment of authentic connection with any of them

I could tell you who they drafted

on their fantasy football team yeah

I could tell you if they're slicing the ball

or if they're hooking the ball

but I couldn't tell you if they're having a hard time

in their relationship with their significant other

I couldn't tell you if they're having a hard time with

their their children as in their parenting journey

and then I just had

I haven't had many light bulb moments in my life

but I'm like holy shit

if I spend the rest of my life

with these types of relationships

with other men where it's just shallow

and sports and work and weather

and don't get me wrong I love sports

I watched the Bears game yesterday

I I love um all these things that I used to love

but I also know that if this is all that it is

then it's not gonna work for me

because my wife will go out for three hours

and connect deeply with her girlfriends

and know everything

and I had 72 hours and I got nothing done

so your question is how do we do it

um first of all

you already know how to do it

we all know how to do it we used to be experts at this

when we were 2 and 3 and 4 years old

when we got mad we banged on the ground

when we got sad we cried our eyes out um

when we got celebratory when we felt joy

we celebrated we did all these things that uh

we did so we know how to do it

we just gotta like get out of our own way

we gotta remove all these barriers

that we have put in front of us

and our feelings and our heart center

so how do you do that you gotta name your feelings

most guys don't even know how to name their feelings

sure are you feeling mad

hey how you feeling Jason

um uh

I'm mad oh

you're mad

is that a thought or is that a feeling

well what do you mean

what's the difference well

thought is just some concept in your brain

but sometimes when we're mad

we feel anger in our hands

yeah or we feel sadness in our throat

or sometimes it comes out through

water of our eyes

and we really want to start tuning into our body

experience um

you know let's jump over to schooling for a second

most parents spend most of their time um

with the uh

with how smart their kids are yeah

and we spend very little time with their emotions

especially our young men um

so there's IQ which I spend very little

if any time with my daughters

regarding how smart they are at their school

that's their journey

I'm not gonna mess with their journey of schooling

but we do invest a lot of our resources

in how they're doing emotionally

and how they can express it in a way

and can they derive the wisdom and the value

of these feelings in their body

and we as guys just shut that shit down way too early

yeah I um

I'm blessed I guess with

with a a very deeply feeling kid in my boy yes he

man he feels things deeply if

if somebody else is upset in the room

he can feel their

yeah there's sadness

yeah and he'll begin to cry yeah

and in a lot of ways

that can come off as maladaptive at his age

and there's a reflex that I have

certainly having grown up the way that I grew up

which by the way my childhood was freaking awesome yeah

um but I wanna shut it down

I I I

I wanna I wanna make him laugh

I wanna distract him and one time I

I was doing that and I'm good at that

I deal with stress and

and anger and all that stuff with humor

and I deflect with humor a lot

and so I'm

I've got I've got 50 years of of skill in that yeah

I call it conditioning and I don't know you

I just met you for the first time

um and first of all

I want to own this I do this too

and and I usually don't deflect with humor

but when I'm feeling something'cause my guess is

when your son is crying in an empathetic way

I'm guessing

there's part of you that gets a little worried

you should probably get a little uncomfortable

so yeah and I

I think I'm empathetic too

I think I feel his pain and I want the pain to go away

right

and the pain is sometimes was some of our best teachers

and my invitation to my clients and other guys

and men living or whatever

it's feel the feelings

because a lot of guys will bypass their emotions

and not feel it

or invite their 6 year old son not to feel it instead

like I'm so impressed

how you're really feeling all your feelings right now

and let that come all the way through

now there's a balance too

because your son can lose himself

to other people's feelings also

that's not healthy either

now he's 6 years old and

he's gonna have to navigate that

of when to put up that boundary

so that he can keep himself safe and not

not be um

conditioned by the other

who happens to be feeling something

but in my judgment most of us guys are so shut off

so shut down that we need to kind of

come more towards where your son is right now

you definitely need to air on the other side of it

that's exactly right yeah

I um

with with respect to the men living thing

it

you know

there used to be institutions in our culture that

kind of took care of this a little bit

we had churches we went to work in person right

we

there was I don't know

clubs and

even a neighborhood bar that you might go to

and hang out with the guys

or you'd have bowling leagues or those sorts of things

and those institutions are getting rooted

yeah and what that means in my view is that it used

you used to kind of by default

have the outlets that you needed to have

and that's not the case anymore

you now have to

you now have to be a lot more intentional

about how you're gonna get those things

now

the positive aspect of that the benefit of that is you

you get to be more intentional

which means you can design

exactly the experience you want

as opposed to just OK

I'm gonna go to

bowling league on Wednesdays and you know

maybe we'll cry over some beers or something like that

you can actually

create the environment that you really want

the downside is you have to do that

otherwise you won't have the environment

and you won't connect emotionally

and I think that's partly what we're seeing

as there's kind of a masculinity crisis in our culture

is that men

we don't

we don't really do anything like that for ourselves

that's actually what women do uniquely well yeah

and I mean I

I have friends whose

whose wives manage their personal calendars

and so that happens well

your wife isn't gonna isn't gonna do that for you

no and and some do and it's kind of sad

that's actually I can't speak for your experience Shawn

but most of my experiences with other guys is

they kind of lose a lot of their friends

and they morph

themselves into the friendships of their wives

and their significant others yeah

you're you're friends with the husbands

of your wife's friends right

yeah and and to your point

you need to be intentional on how to do that and uh

you sometimes you need to be creative

I think it used to be easier

I think you're right

the churches and the bowling leagues

when I started this organization

the only reason I started it

is because I googled men's groups

and all of them came up attached to a church

now I grew up Roman Catholic

I don't practice that religion anymore

but I wanted this to be outside of any type of ideology

so at Men Living we got Democrats

Republicans Jews

Muslims Christians

agnostics atheists like I

the only thing I wanted us to have in common is

we're both we're all men

but I don't care if you're a Christian or an atheist

or agnostic or anything like that

so these institutions used to be put in place

it was kind of more common and anybody who shows up

you know there's 4 billion men on this planet

and there is plenty of men's organizations

that have plenty of capacity

and now that we have this ability

this technology in front of us

to be able to connect on zoom or in person uh

but you need to go look for it a little bit

whereas back in the old days your buddy be like

hey you wanna join a bowling league

and you would just do that

nowadays you don't have a buddy

who's asking you to join a bowling league

you have to Google men's groups and go find one

that's right um

but it doesn't mean we can't do it

but it requires a little bit of effort

and if we're as strong and as tough

and as creative as we think we are as men

then we should be able to do this

and before we press record today

I wanna talk a little bit about the

difference between the

our female counterparts and all that

I judge that our female counterparts

the moms have had to adapt to

what I would consider patriarchal culture

doesn't mean men are bad it just means that

we live in a system where most of the power

resides in people who identify as men

and our

our female counterparts have adapted to that system

and now it's our turn as guys to adapt

because there are certain things

us boys are getting left behind

we are not on girls are more

there's more girls in college now

boys have more behavioral issues in grade school

like there's all this data to show that

it's hard to be a man because it is

because our factory jobs are going away

jobs in the field are going away

and there's all these openings of pink jobs

you know teaching

social worker nursing and all this other stuff right

and it's our turn to adapt

and instead of us adapting collectively

we're just saying oh

isn't it hard being a guy

like yeah

it's hard being a guy and it's also hard being a girl

so let's figure out how to be a guy in this world

and maybe it means that you might be a social worker

instead of a factory worker

but we have the capacity to do it

so going down a rabbit hole here

but just want to throw that out there

yeah I

I think that's exactly right

and

you know

there's nothing wrong with that

and the people who resist change are hardly ever

hardly ever have great lives

right you know

embracing change is the way forward

and that doesn't mean that all change is great

and that doesn't mean that you can't

influence it in a way that

it helps you yeah

but you know

by by sticking your head in the sand

and wishing things were different

you're not gonna get anywhere yeah

and by the way you're not gonna teach your kids that

that how to how to react in the world

unless

what you're hoping to do is provide a counter example

that's exactly where I was gonna go

as far as how do we teach our sons to do this

so if you're in a traditional household

where it's abandoned a woman um

is the is your son and your daughter seeing

you know the husband wash the dishes

is the husband maybe it's a stay at home dad

yeah like

are we teaching our kids that being a man

doesn't mean it's just one track

it could be all these different things

and um

in in a lot of cases out there

um there's this term that we use on the podcast

called the emotional labor

I don't know if you're familiar with it

but it's the labor that it takes

the emotional labor it takes to run a household

yeah and my wife is the CEO of our household

whether it's right or wrong

I have the same deal that's right

and then I used to say stupid stuff like

you know what honey

just tell me what to do and I'll do it

and the problem with that is my wife doesn't want

we already have three children

yeah now she yeah

the monkey's on her back still

I'm like okay

well just treat me like your fourth child

and tell me what to do and she's like no

I want you to meet me where I am

I want you to initiate

the scheduling of the dentist appointments

or the doctor appointments

or hold space for your daughter

who just had a bad day at school

instead of be like oh

I'm not that good at feeling stuff

so I'll just let mom do it

so that's the emotional labor part of it

and there's too many of us guys that are being like oh

I'm just not that's just not my way

I'm just not good at that

but if they want to talk about

you know money and finance and all that

I'll help but if it's about emotions

that's their that's the mom's job

and yeah uh

we need to lean into that

we need to have those conversations

yeah there's a

there's a a kind of a

a deck of cards going around called Fair Play

and it gets a it

it gets a lot of

there there are some very polarized views

about what fair play is but one of the

one of the concepts that I think is really

really really powerful um

in that is of total ownership

so what it does is it is it creates

there are a bunch of cards that are

you know things that you can own in the household

one of the big criticisms is that

there aren't enough cards that for for yeah

men stuff it's mostly geared towards women and I

and that's a criticism I actually kind of agree with

yeah um

but the key thing there is that

if you're going to take ownership of a card

you own the card fully

you're responsible for every aspect of it

from beginning to end

that taking responsibility for the thing

whatever the thing is is a really

really really powerful concept and and

and it's important to be able to say

you know to my wife okay

I have this and so you know

one of the things I own in our family is um

if someone has to get up in the middle of the night

it has

it's gonna be me because I fall asleep really easily

my wife does not and so

she wakes up at 2:00 in the morning to

take a kid to the bathroom then um

it really disturbs her sleep

and she has a real hard time the next day

but if I wake up at 2:00 in the morning to take a kid

to the bathroom I go right back to sleep

and it's not as disruptive to me

still disruptive I don't wanna have to do it

but it's just way easier for me than it is for her

so that's one of the things I own in the family

and so that means I'm really proactive

if I hear something

I'm trying to make sure that she's resting

the whole the whole point is that she gets to rest

through the potential disruption

and I take it on and

and that's that's a really

really useful concept

taking full ownership of the thing

so that the monkey isn't on her back

in spite of the fact that she's the CEO of the house

and ostensibly she's

responsible for making sure that the kids aren't

freaking out in the middle of the night

and don't pee in their beds

but that's still my it's my task

yeah and that goes out to communication

and it's pretty simple and how many of us

including me sometimes I'm just making the Assumption

oh well

that's that's her job and she knows it

or she's assuming that's my job

and I know it and I don't right

so communication is funny

and I think it's interesting that you talk

I've never heard of those cards

but I kind of like them

and it sounds like what you're saying is

there's way too many what I would say can um

conventionally female jobs and not enough

and like what are like the male jobs

cleaning out the garage and mowing the lawn

like is that yeah yeah

going to work or whatever the thing yeah

exactly

and I've had so many conversations

with the guys about this and it's really interesting

and you know what is

there's no such thing as a female job or a male job

we have the capacity for both

so that's interesting so yeah

and I think you know

if I were to steal man

the position of the advocates of the system

what you're trying to do is

raise awareness to all the invisible

things that happen in the household

that nobody gets credit for

and that you know obviously

you know

typically and historically the women have to do and

and so alright

well let's document those things um

I think that you know

it's reasonable to say oh

well there are also things that

that men do around the house that

that aren't recognize either okay fine

let's create cards for all those things it's

it's great the whole point is to recognize

all of the activity that you end up doing

that isn't appreciated

and if you both if the exercise is oh

we're gonna come together

and define all of these things

and name them and then claim ownership of them

and recognize that we can pass them off

and who owns what and all this stuff

that's a healthy thing to do if it becomes

this way

to battle about who's doing more for the family

or whatever

well then it becomes pretty ugly and I think

I think that has happened a lot and it

it really

I think it points a mag a magnifying glass at the um

at the communication capabilities of the

of the of the relationship and

you know that can be bad and that can be good

um it's interesting

it reminds me of a story

so for each of my daughter's birthdays

we'd have a birthday party

we have family over and I do a video

so what I do is I take you know

pictures and videos from the year

I set it to music and then we all watch it

while we're eating cake and ice cream

that's spectacular I love that

I'm I'm gonna steal that idea

please do

and I've been doing it for my oldest daughters

I think I stopped when she went to college

so I did so for the first 18 years of her life wow

I have a video for every single year

what's interesting is one year in particular uh

I did the video

and then everybody claps at the end of the video

it's just kind of like a kind courteous thing

and then like

I think my mother in law who was alive at the time

she's like oh my god

isn't Todd the best

doesn't he do such a great job with those videos

and my wife was supportive of me

but at the same time she's like okay

just so you guys all know I decided on the date

I created the invitations

I went and got the cake I wrapped all the presents

I made sure you're all gonna be there

she did like 12 different things to get this party

I did this one little thing

and I'm the one getting the accolades

and everybody's so absolutely yeah

and and cause all that other stuff is invisible well

I mean of course you did those things that's yeah yeah

and she deserves she deserves recognition for that yeah

I love that you know I I feel like you and Kathy

uh model really strong partnership and you know

how how do you look at that

and how do you how does a healthy parenting

partnership influence the way that our kids

understand their roles how boys understand masculinity

respect emotional safety

what do you think about that

um first thing

you know I have a really really good marriage and um

I have an amazing partner

and I think she would say that she has an amazing

amazing partner

and a lot of people sometimes ask us like

what's the secret

cause it seems like so easy for you to and by the way

it's not always easy as a matter of fact

upstairs we just kind of had

she didn't feel like I was meeting her needs

because something's going on this

week and all that so it's never it's never perfect

but literally in this moment

like we're in a a little bit of a teeny tiny rupture

which happens from time to time

absolutely um

but one thing I think both Kathy and I have in common

is that we do our own work

what does that mean personal growth work therapy

reading books listening to podcast

talking to friends investigating my own reactivity

investigating my childhood

patterns of why I do things that are no longer helpful

so that's the one thing that we both do

and it wasn't always like that

she was always this personal growth freak

where she's reading books

and she's in therapy and she's seeing an energy worker

and she's doing all this stuff

and I was just a guy who worked and brought home money

and I didn't do anything else

and I had this moment like

if I am going to grow with this woman

I need to get on the train

otherwise she's gonna just go right past me

so yeah

the one thing I would say is the the secret to our uh

marriage which is really

really good is we're both working on ourselves

and the other which is a big thing

it's the ability to navigate conflict

we all have these different conflict styles

I you know there's fight there's freeze

there's flee and then there's one called fawning

I happen to be a fanner

so interesting when my wife is upset with me

I get really small and I become like

a little puppy dog

that just wants to be back in the good graces of her

and I want her to love me and I want her to tell

tell me she loves me that way I feel good about myself

that's my conflict style and I'm working on it

and I try to own it and I try not to show up that way

but we all have different conflict styles

and we're not taught this stuff in school

we're taught all this ridiculous stuff of

and I honor science and math

and history and geography and all that

but wouldn't it be great if we each had a class

in how to navigate conflict styles

maybe when we're in second grade

8th grade high school and one in college

because the only reason I know about is

cause I read books on

experts on how to navigate conflict in a healthy way

and by the way conflict is a really healthy thing

I actually grow closer to my wife

when we resolve our conflict in a conscious way

much more than we would have had

the conflict never happened in the beginning

so conflict although it's uncomfortable and scary

it's a wonderful tool to to bring together

um love and connection in a way

because if we just kind of like

tolerate each other

and we stay out of each other's way

and we avoid all that conflict

that is not the type of marriage I wanna be in

I wanna be in a marriage that's alive and dynamic

not one that's kind of hollow and surfacey

so that would be my two answers

do your own work

and understand how to navigate conflict yeah

my own experience my wife and I have kind of a

I don't know that I would call it a manifesto

or anything but it's a

maybe a tagline and our

what our

what our marriage is about is we're trying to create a

lives of excellence and joy

and

and one of the things that comes with that is

there's a lot of struggle

and I remember you know

recently we've had some really

really really severe struggles that

just kind of working through some stuff

and we've got young kids and all of that

and it feels tough it feels really

really really tough

and you know

maybe you're thinking it's not even worth it sometimes

and then we look around

and we see a bunch of other couples that seem

like they're

way happier than us

but they have really severe problems

like how is it that we feel so concerned about

you know this relatively minor thing

where these other people have gaping holes

in their foundations and they go on like they why

how do they have easier lives than we do

and the reason is because we really

we obsess over those things

and we want them to be good

and we want them to be excellent

and we want them to be perfect

and yeah I mean if you don't care what

you know your lives look like

then it's a little easier to be happy go lucky

but that's not gonna

and you up where you wanna go

and but man

it's hard yeah

it's funny I

my wife and I have had the exact same conversations

like are we making this harder on ourselves

than it needs to be but I think that there's an and

and I don't know this to be true

but my guess is that there's an invisible um

withdrawal of energy for the happy go lucky years

I think that there's something hidden

yeah and if you

if I am not dealing with problems

challenges situations

and instead of me drinking a few beers

or me just going out with the guys

and not resolving something with my wife yeah

um in the short term

I think that that's a really smart strategy

but in the long term

that is just a recipe for disconnection yeah

so I I

I first of all

I totally resonate with what you just said

like these people seem happier

and they don't complicate their lives

the way you and I are complicating it with each other

yeah so uh

but I also know that there's this life force in me

that is uh

that grows when I'm dealing

with authenticity vulnerability

yeah um

challenges conflicts

and not escaping so yeah

yeah I

and you know what the other thing is

is maybe those other people are right

um and maybe their lives are great

and maybe it's easier also

and maybe that's the way to be

it's just not the way I'm gonna be yeah

it just doesn't work for me yeah

like keep doing your thing

yeah but I'm not wired that way right

I gotta deal with this the way I deal with it right

and you know

just the idea of the comparison

I have the same comparison in me

yeah and it's

there's not a whole lot of uh

benefits from comparing our story to somebody else's

but we also have to honor the one in us

that's right that does compare yeah yeah

it helps you kind of get a baseline but

but sure but yeah

I mean there's no

you know yeah

you know

where in your work and especially with men living

where do you see dads getting stuck most often

and what helps them move forward

well some of this

what I just said to you

I think the minute that we feel some type of discomfort

we try to escape from it as guys yeah

I think like

the only emotion that we're allowed to feel is anger

when in fact

there's all these other emotions that are cooking

inside of our body if we can name it locate

it express it so for me

like at men Living we have these five suggestions

so I'll go more go over them real quick

men living consciously so what does conscious mean

conscious just means

am I aware what's going on in my body

in my surroundings without judgment

it's a really hard thing to do to live consciously

by the way it's something I aim to do

most of the time I'm not

but I know that's what I'm aiming for

men living consciously No. 2

men living curiously can I let go of the need to be

right in an argument or at work or with my kid

and instead take my hat off

and then try to put their hat on

and see the world through their lens

that's men living curiously

the third one which is the one I like the best

men living emotionally

because we have so much work to do on this

the only emotion we're allowed to feel is anger

yeah um

I the fact that your son

your 6 year old boy 6 year old boy is an empath

my ask for you is just nurture that as best you can

as long as you can

one story I like to tell is I was watching

I was at the movie theater in my neighborhood

and there's these two boys

probably 4 years old maybe 5

and they were holding hands

two boys holding hands and for me

I'm just like my heart just gets filled up like they

they don't know what homophobia is

they don't know any of that stuff

and I honestly started crying a little bit like

and the reason I cried was because

I loved what they were doing

and showing

and I know the minute they get into first grade

some kids gonna be like are you gay or whatever

and it just makes me so sad to think that so um

our sons are emotional until they get to school and

you know

billboards and TV and movies grab a hold of them so

but we have to control what we can control

and what we can control is um

how we show up in relationship

can our son see that we're emotional

can our sons see that we're vulnerable

can our sons see that we're scared

that we're mad that we're happy

us guys aren't very good at expressing happiness

unless our sports team is winning

what about

what about all the other times when we're having happy

but we're too cool to to look out of control and happy

so yeah so men living emotionally um

is the third one men living candidly

which is can I can I speak from a place of truth

with love and compassion

and can I listen compassionately

which is really hard thing to do

and then lastly is men living intentionally

where are you where do you wanna go

and are you taking the steps

to get to where you wanna go

do you have any intention

so man that is

that is a fantastic list I

I

the end of that story with my son

me trying to distract distract him from being sad um

is a great lesson that he taught me

which is that at some point um

I was doing that and he said dad stop

he's starting to laugh and

and I feel I was feeling victorious and he goes dad

stop and I go what

he goes just let me feel what I feel

you never let me feel what I feel

and I was like I was

you know what you're

and I was like you're so right by that

I had another situation where the boy was um

he's about 18 months old and um

I said to him I said

oh his name is lake

I said lake

give me a kiss

and he comes over and he comes to kiss me on the lips

and I move my my uh

my cheek sideways

so that he could kiss me on the cheek instead

and my wife said to me she goes

why don't you let him kiss you on the lips

and I said yeah

men men don't kiss each other on the lips

and she goes

that's all

and I thought about it for like a day

and I realized that this is an artifact of like

something really not healthy

yeah and you

know I resolved that I wasn't gonna let that do that

and now you know

he kisses me on the lips and I kiss him on the lips

when I drop him off at school

and it's it's a beautiful moment

that's so sweet

and I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that

because there is this kind of embedded homophobia

like men don't kiss other men on the lips

unless they're gay or whatever

I think Tom Brady got into trouble

because he's talking about kissing his dad on the lips

and Tom Brady was an adult

and his dad was an even older

and some people get whatever grossed out by it like

well I do kiss my dad

I don't kiss him on the lips

I kiss him on the forehead and on the cheek or whatever

but first of all

I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that story

and my hope is that you can continue to

show your love in a way that seems

appropriate to you I'm glad your wife challenged you

I'm too that's awesome

um and it's funny like

but you even said

so let me challenge you even though I don't know you

you didn't ask me to challenge you

it's like give me a kiss

do you have daughters too or just sons

I have one daughter and one son

my daughter is 3 years old

so um

kisses are not uh

taken they're offered

so when you say give me a kiss

my even better if would be like

would it be OK if I gave you a kiss

yeah because your daughter most

and I'm I'm focusing on your daughter

cause I have three of them

consent is a huge thing you know

when you and I were growing up

we didn't learn anything about consent

like we didn't even know what it was

we had one day of sex education uh

and it was very uncomfortable yeah

for our parents so consent like or

and now I put on grandparents like yeah

I used to say to my kids oh

go go give Grandpa a hug

and the reason I did that

if I'm being honest is I want my

I want to feel good about myself yeah

so that my dad could feel loved from his grandchildren

right when in fact that's

I don't want to tell anybody to go

do anything with their body right

they they get to decide yeah

um

so just kind of start building that into your practice

or investigate that and see what works

because every family is different

that's a great observation Todd

and I appreciate you challenging me on that

I uh

I I'm gonna give that a lot of thought

yeah yeah

and that's such a reflective thing I

I I do it without even thinking about it

and that's yeah

that's exactly right yeah

well I

I love to um

I love to finish off every single

one of these conversations

by asking my guest the same question

and I know it's gonna be putting you on the spot

but if you had to leave every father listening

or every parent listening with one principle

a grounding idea for raising boys into good men

what would that principle be an operating principle

I would say model

the behavior that you wanna see in your son

if you want your son to treat his partner with Equality

treat your partner with Equality

um

and just do your own work

it's so easy for me to project my

unowned stuff onto my kids

our kids are here to teach us

we're not here to teach them

I'm here to learn from my kids

in the same way that your son taught you

he said let me get this feeling out

don't distract me with laughing

like I think that our kids are here to teach us

a lot more than we're here to teach them

and that's some people think that that's radical

but I would say

what is it that your kids are here to teach you

my kids are here to teach me presence

my kids are too old now

but when they used to walk to school

they would stop and look at the ants

and look at the clouds

and just be fascinated with the world

and I'd be like come on

we gotta get to school get to school

this kid was teaching me presence

that's right can my kid teach me

so look for ways on how your kids are here to teach you

yeah um

that would be another thing I would think yeah

I think that's that's a fantastic principle Todd

thank you very much and

and thank you so much for uh

coming on and sharing your wisdom uh

with me and the rest of our listeners

I I really appreciate it

uh Todd Adams is the executive director of Men Living

he's the co host of Zen Parenting Radio

and uh

if you want to learn more about what he's up to

and especially uh

men living groups

check out the links in the show notes

and to every parent listening

thank you for joining me on Raising Men

I'm Shawn Dawson and you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino