I'll see people coming in and saying like

I'm pretty sure I have autism

and I was like I'm

I think you might be just a little quirky

and that's okay

and now

that also causes problems for people'cause they're like

I want that label because I want to be part of

I mean maybe we need

a label for more more quirky right

I mean like I I

I want to be able being able to name something

gives me a way to characterize it in my own brain

and decide what it is I

I get that and maybe

maybe we're just doing people like that a disservice

by not having a point and a way to label that

hello welcome back to Raising Men

today we're gonna tackle something

I am really excited to learn about

but I don't know that much about today

and that's one of the most common uh

complex landscapes of parenthood

which is raising sons

whose minds don't fit into the standard box

and our guest today is uniquely qualified

to answer that Doctor Katrina Ostmeier

is the CEO and founder of a company called

beyond the individual and she's an associate professor

of the practice at university of Kansas

she's a licensed psychologist

and a board certified behavior analyst

who has spent her year her career

tailoring care for children

who require more than the standard

cookie cutter approach but perhaps most importantly

she's in the trenches

she is the mother of her own neuro divergent boy

and she understands that behind the clinical diagnosis

is a son that needs to find his footing

and figure out how to thrive in our world

Dr. oshmayer welcome to raising men

thank you for having me

so now you you lead a clinical practice

you teach at the university at

the university level

and you're also a mom of a neurodivergent boy

so tell me about how that

the synergies

between your professional life and your personal life

yeah it's

it's always interesting um

having a background when I went into this field

I didn't start having kids

I actually had my son when I was in graduate school

hmm and um

there's a lot of times where I have moments when

we had some of the hard things

where I was completely unsure of everything

I had Learned and all of my career was true

not true a lot of guessing and second guessing myself

and hoping I'm doing it right

which I think a lot of parents feel

um as my son's getting older

he's almost 15 now I feel

more confident in some of the things that I was taught

and them being true but

having a better understanding of

how that translates to real life

has been really impactful in what I do in my career

and honestly um

working with my son and I have a daughter as well

who has some similar qualities

has really LED me to how I've shaped my career

over time

and actually how I run my clinic at this time

and what I teach my students

you know my understanding

and please correct me if I'm wrong about this

is that boys are diagnosed with behavioral disorders

and that sort of thing

at much higher rates than girls is

that is that right

yeah and it's interesting because um

we'll see neuro

neurodiversity or neurodevelopmental disorders

such as autism ADHD

um intellectual disabilities

things like that just present really differently

and boys and girls based on there

there's questions that bio and how we socialize them

right but um

we do see boys are more likely to be um

noticed as like acting out

oh like he's really fidgety

he's not listening he's all over the place

and so when we're looking at that

we see

most of these diagnoses are

diagnosed more highly in boys

but there's a question of whether

they actually do occur at greater rates

or if we're just our diagnostic criteria are biased to

to boys yeah

yeah I'm

I'm interested to know I

how do we disambiguate neurodivergence from like

just being a boy natural male energy

I always talk about um

a couple of different things and

and there's two pieces to this

um first is

are these behaviors or these things going on

are they causing problems

so that's number one that's question number one

and then question number two is

are these problems because uh

the environment has some issues in it

that are making these problems

or are these problems because

this child's not able to meet the expectations

they need to um

to learn or or

you know get through the day and

and meet developmental milestones

and so it's that two part uh

question that I always

look at whenever I'm diagnosing as well because

you know there's a lot of variation in the population

and things like activity level

and social motivation and social skills

and it's really not a problem unless it's a problem

is what I tell people

man interesting

so let me drill into that a little bit

it's really not a problem unless it's a problem I

my son's experience going to school um

was a little bit shocking to me in the sense that

he did not have a nice

smooth entry into that whole universe

and he was very fortunate

because he had a principal of his TK

and kindergarten school

that it was a man and was very sensitive to

it just seemed like he understood that this is boys

and he's gonna take some time to learn

uh huh and I don't know if that would have happened if

if there were a different principal

or if the principal was a woman honestly

and I'm interested in your take on that yeah

I and a lot of what I do is actually providing

tiered interventions in schools

and um it is really interesting because um

with a district that my company and I have worked with

in the past one of the things that we started with

is working a lot in kindergarten and preschool

classrooms and one of the things we were seeing

we were getting called in for kids that were

struggling in those classrooms and

we were like well

you know there is an expectation here that maybe

most 5 and 6 year olds can't really meet

you know

in terms of how long they sit attention and focus

and that maybe some of this is normal

variability and attention right

not I don't think that

45% of the kids in your class have ADHD

or a behavior disorder the

the those numbers aren't quite what we expect

yeah and so when you talk about that I

I do feel very strongly about that that um

a lot of times when we're looking for

what's the answer for why a child is

struggling in the classroom

or has a behavior problem

or what they call a behavior problem

if we're gonna treat it anyways

the treatment is actually going to be

let's change what the classroom looks like

around this child

and we might do some skill instruction

but we would do that anyways in school

because every child needs slightly different um

teaching and most kids

you know 80 to 90% of kids

if we're doing it well in the classroom

should be succeeding without any

particularly individualized intervention

and so if I see a classroom where that's not happening

especially I'm gonna question that um

and then also we have like

these 10 to 15% of kids

who maybe need a little bit more right

and it doesn't mean that they have a disorder

it just means hey

you know what I came

into school and you know what

um maybe I didn't do a lot of sitting

maybe I've been a really active kid playing outside

doing other things like that

and now the expectations

I have to sit for long periods of time

and I just don't have that skill yet

that child

might need a little bit of additional intervention

but it doesn't mean he has a disorder

if that makes sense yeah

that that's my boy haha

that you just described I mean

you just he's got so much energy

and he has this desire to entertain people

and he just loves organizing things

and I mean and

and and I

I get you know I

I have a real sensitivity to this um

because when I was young it was

it was when add was just coming into the forefront

and there was a real question um

about whether or not you were just

whether to to what extent

in any particular school or environment or whatever

it was a real thing which it's definitely a real thing

but or it was a way to get the kids on drugs

so they're a little bit more

malleable and controllable

at 8th in 8th grade or whatever

and um

the school system tried to put me on

on Ritalin and my you know they

they suggested strongly that

that they should that my mom should do that

and my mom threw a fit and um

didn't let it happen

if she hadn't done that

one of my great passions in life is flying airplanes

and it turns out

that if you have ever been diagnosed with add

or ADHD or any of that stuff

then

it's a lot more difficult to get your pilot's license

or at least it used to be um

such that it would not have been possible for me

I never would have gotten into it

and no she had no way of knowing that she

but what she knew is that she wasn't gonna

like she was gonna take this really seriously

and she wasn't just gonna roll over on whatever

you know the school was saying that they wanted to do

and she she protected me in a way that

I don't know if a lot of parents are doing that

or necessarily would do that

or would have done that back then

I think I think it's a lot different now

I think that the diagnostic criteria are probably a lot

more firmed up and

and you know

the kinds of expectations

like people like you come in and go

it's not 45% it's more like 10 and

and you know

like let's let's let's

let's make sure that we solve this other ways first

I don't think that was present back when I was

you know 10 and um

and so like it

it's it's a

it is a it is a complex thing

you want to make sure that you

help everybody in the way that they need to be helped

and that you know

at the end of the story it

the most important thing is that the

the kids thrive yeah

and that you know and

and as long as you approach it from that standpoint

then I think that's the right call

yeah and I always

I think about um

when we're supporting kids and families

and in schools and systems

uh that we have a lot of tools

and one of the things is you know

back in yeah the

the 90s

we were seeing that hey

if you get diagnosed with ADHD

the recommendation is medication right

and even today

if you look at the American Academy of Pediatrics

the recommendation is a combination of medication

and behavior therapy for a diagnosis of ADHD

interestingly though

there has been a shift

and there's a lot of literature and discussion about

whether first

when we make these diagnoses

do we look at behavior therapy and systems

intervention first and then consider medication

and it can be a little bit different in

like more of a mild to moderate case

uh with some of these diagnoses versus a more severe um

case of course

as well and so

I always look at like

what are the things that we do and the tools we use

um and I

I think of my son for example

uh we did

we started recognizing um

differences for him around two and a/2

3 years of age and um

we're having some pretty significant consequences

of some of those uh

experiences and so we started with some pretty uh

intensive behavior therapy

just doing it on our own um

just because

without a diagnosis of something like autism

the types of therapies we were doing are not available

with insurance in the state of Kansas

and so we we did all of these things

we did a lot of accommodation

this kid we met with this school

we're like we're really worried

we really struggled in preschool

he went into kindergarten

this kid he's like

I like structure I like

he's like I was struggling in preschool

what we found out is

cause there wasn't as much structure

and so kindergarten 1st grade

he did great

2nd grade kind of fell apart

and for us

we had done all these years of behavior therapy and um

there were just some things that we could no longer

you know control and where the things that I was like

hey could we do more in school

probably is it feasible we're gonna get those things

no and so at that point

we did decide to do a medication for him and for him

I feel like it was necessary

um I am quite sure that I have ADHD

every one of my students will tell you that

and I I have systems in place

and I ask my students to accommodate me sometimes um

but I've never

for example been on medication

I don't I think

I have all the skills that I need to be successful

so I don't feel the need for it

and we've had the conversation with our son

for example like you

this is your choice

how you choose to manage this as you're getting older

um

he probably

he was also premature and has some other things

so

he probably will be looking at some kind of medication

regimen of some sort as he gets older

but I do also really believe in the choice

and even speaking of airplanes

you know and flying

I had a client who was on medication and had ADHD and

um he was very much

interested in getting his pilot's license

so what we did is

a bunch of testing to show that he could manage

and have attention and focus as he got older um

and and he had to prove

like you said he had to prove that he could

fly without the medication

in order to get his license

yeah and and

and you can do it and

and now it I mean it's

it's now a lot

more possible than it was when I was younger

yeah but man

that's great and

and I yeah

and you know they

they also they

they just wanna make sure that there

that if someone's gonna be flying up over cities

that they're gonna be safe and they're not gonna

you know run into any buildings and

because there's enough of that happens without

you know having medical reasons for it happening um

let me ask you this you know

I

is neurodivergence even a disorder

we refer to these things as disorders

but you know

to what extent is it just

people's brains work differently

and that is you know

that's just the way things are

and characterizing as a disorder

has negative connotations

and I love that you asked that

because I think there really has been such a shift

in how we look at this in the last 10 years especially

and so when we think about neurodivergence

we started out with what we call

neurodevelopmental disorders

like ADHD autism

etcetera and in our previous diagnostic manual

we were DSM4 DSM4TR

these diagnoses carried a lot more weight

than they used to and they used to have a lot more

as you kind of talked about

negative connotation associated with a problem right

and over the last 10 15 years or so

we have seen a shift one is our

our diagnostic criteria is different and

and especially in the case of something like autism

the criteria is actually pretty murky at this point

for some of these level 1 cases

um but there is a community within this so um

people who say hey

I feel outside I feel othered

I'm clearly feel different than

than the than the rest of the people around me

and so it became more of a label of a community and um

it's been interesting actually

as a diagnostician

that I'll see people coming in and saying like

I'm pretty sure I have autism

and I was like I'm

I think you might be just a little quirky

and that's okay

and now that also causes problems for people

because they're like

I want that label because I want to be part of

I mean maybe we need a label for more

more quirky right

I mean like I I

I want to be able being able to name something

gives me a way to characterize it in my own brain

and decide what it is I

I get that and maybe

maybe we're just doing people like that a disservice

by not having

a point and a way to label that

yeah and

and I think that's the thing is maybe it's um I

and I really try to affirm

it's like yeah your

your brain is like you said

your brain's a little bit different

but one of the things is if you like

look at neuroimaging

one of the reasons we have such a hard time replicating

neuroimaging studies is because

everyone's brain is just a little bit different

and they all work just a little bit different

we all have unique strengths and weaknesses

our brains are shaped by our experiences

and so we want to see some of that

um we

we expect and want to see

divergence across the population um

but it's

and this is where I always kind of go back and forth

it's like you know

you can be a part of a community

and not have to have a problem

and that's

the thing is a disorder says you have a problem

and this is something that you need intervention

you need support you need something different

and I often into a lot of what I

my work when I move from diagnostics to

you know therapy

it's how do you recognize your own personal strengths

and stretches and how do you work with those

to have the life you wanna have

and be able to be in all the environments

you wanna be in

so you're not losing out on opportunities

um and that's one of the other things too

we've seen with the field is moving away from

let's treat this let's fix this to more of a

what do you want your life to be

and how do we help you

recognize what you're working with

and do so effectively

I love that I love that framing um

because it takes a a positive approach as it's

it takes a a positive approach as it's

it's like the difference between health and illness and

and saying okay

well your goal

let's define what health is for you

and then like

help you get as close to that ideal as you can

as opposed to oh

well let's catalog all of your sicknesses and then

and then deal with them one at a time

right and

and then you know

of course when you define what health okay

well health to me means

you know I can

I can bench press a certain amount

and I can run for so long

and I can do all those things well

for somebody else it might be different

you know

somebody who doesn't have the use of their legs

then they're not going to be able to run

in the same way that I can

but they can define health for themselves in

in in a way that is meaningful

that has the exact same meaning to them

as mine does to me and

and so like and then okay fine

we're gonna accommodate the

person's lack of

the use of their legs by giving them a wheelchair

and that's as opposed to treating an illness

or treating something that's bad

we're enabling something that's good

and I think that that's a much

more healthy way to look at this kind of thing and

and and for for

for everybody for the for the parent

for the boy and I think there's a real lesson in that

yeah and I think it's

I love the strength based approach

for a lot of reasons and I even go back to I

I read an article um

an evolutionary psychology about um

ADHD specifically

and they did a little study looking at people

with a Berry picking um

kind of paradigm where it's like people who had ADHD

when they didn't find berries

they were more likely to move on to the next patch

and so one of the things

when you think about having people who

are gonna sit there

and really look for every last Berry in the patch

and people who are gonna move on

and find the next patch you need both

of those type of people in our population to survive

you know and so I was left to think about like um

yes there's differences and

and for some of the people um

with neurodevelopmental disorders

they may need a lot more support than others

but they also bring so much value and um

strengths to us as a population in society

and I always like to think about that and

and try to work with families and

and kids themselves and adults to

to see like

what is it that you want and what do you bring and um

what do you enjoy

yeah I

you know that

that tendency to look for the next patch um

you know there's a word for that

when you encounter it in children

and that's Defiance

hahaha and I

you know I think that

my own personal reflex in dealing with Defiance

is to meet it with my own version of Defiance

and it's like it's a challenge right

and I need to suppress that challenge

that's my reflex

I fight that reflex because I also recognize that

that's not a healthy

nor effective way of dealing with that experience um

you must have a tremendous amount of experience in

in in dealing with that that um

that dynamic tell me about

you know what

what do I do when my boy is just not

doing what I want him to do

well and this

I'm gonna give you an answer that's uh

probably less simple than a lot of people want

when they come to talk to me about this um

the first thing I always say is um

I'm trained as a behavior analyst

and one of the very first things we learn is

we describe behavior instead of label it

and then we ask why is it happening

and um

and I get this a lot where it's like

so and So's just a bad kid

they're being defiant they're being a brat

you know all of these labels

that can go along with these behaviors when

when it's difficult to deal with

and um

one of the things that I'll say is like

but why is it happening and one of the things is we

we can look very functionally and say like

what's happening outside is like well um

you know they just want their way

you know we call them my way kids right

so do I I'm gonna be really honest

and yeah no I get that

for me as an adult

it works super well for me to push back

sometimes I it's just

I've Learned when it's worth pushing back

and one is not and sometimes

I make a mistake and push back when I shouldn't

and I end up with egg on my face

everyone does it it's fine

but um

with kids I think about okay

why is this happening

so maybe there's something I'm not understanding

I think of a kid maybe who has like rigidity right

it's

I just really feel a need to finish whatever I'm doing

and if it's not finished it really bothers me

now life can't always be finished

so I might still have to teach skills

to deal with that discomfort but um

we may say like let's talk about it why um

I also gonna look at motivation

the

the reality is that everybody prefers to have their way

and if I am seeing like

in this moment where we're being defiant

I'm gonna say OK

here's what I need you to do

here's what you wanna do

we're not doing this in the moment

by the way that's too much talking

but the moment the moment is the worst time to do it

the moment is the worst and it's like

but what are we gonna do we see how we change behaviors

actually

through consequences and through repeated consequences

um I actually deal with it less with my son

more with my daughter

it's more of the defiant one in our house

but I do have a

bit of a memory of the same way in my house

yeah vivid memory

when she was 3 and she we had cottonwood seeds

and she wanted to get all these cottonwood seeds

and keep them as pets and I'm like

do not bring those in my house

um and one morning

we're getting ready to go to school and everything

and I said if you walk out that door and get

and we should call them fuzzies

get a fuzzy there will be a consequence

she looked me dead in the eye

thought about it for three seconds

open the door went and got it and and

and it was worth it to her in that moment

her brother's face though

was just

he was like oh shocking

he's like mom's gonna lose it

and some I'm

I would love to say I'm a perfect parent

I never lose it with my kids

I never yell I never lose my temper

the reality is sometimes I do

but that was one of my parenting moments

I was like I actually did it right

and I said

I need a minute to think about your consequence

everyone get in the van we're going to school

I had a really similar situation with my brother

with my son when he was about 3 years old he um

he used to carry this backpack and it was loaded

I mean this thing must have weighed half of his weight

and I mean he just had everything in there

and he would carry this backpack wherever he went

and we went to Legoland one time

he loves Legoland

and we have a Legoland here where I live and um

so we go fairly often

and we went to Legoland

and he brought his backpack with him

and that was this is really frustrating for me

I hate the backpack he

it's all over it's

it's it's always in the way

it's you know

he he goes to the play areas

then he leaves the backpack places

then we have to find the backpack

we have to remember to take it with us

it's this it's a

it's a flipping nightmare

and this happened and for

you know

about two or three times he had left a back backpack

and I said okay lake

if you leave the backpack again you

you need to manage your backpack

and if you leave the backpack again

we are going to leave Legoland

and he he's like OK

OK and then he leaves the backpack and we can't find it

and so I go I find the backpack and I said alright

we gotta go and of course

that results in an absolute full on meltdown screaming

I have to carry him out of the park

we go to the car everything gets calmed down

and I said listen

and and he was screaming the

the the um

the the outburst was all about

you know he

didn't want to leave Legoland

I wanna stay I wanna stay I wanna stay and I said

listen

do you wanna stay at Legoland or do you wanna go home

he goes I wanna stay

I you know by this time he's pretty calm

he's

he's we've gotten over the thick of it and he's like

I I really wanna stay at Legoland

I said OK

I'll tell you I'll make you a deal

we can stay at Legoland but

only if you leave your backpack in the car

and

it was agony for him

you could see

him mulling it over and thinking it through

and then he looks at me and he says

we can go home

he wasn't willing

to leave that backpack in the car

and this was so frustrating for me

because I hated the backpack

and you know what eventually it just went away

and he didn't need the backpack anymore

and it was okay

and I had to create a bunch of rules around like

I didn't wanna have to carry the backpack

I didn't wanna have to manage the backpack

but if he wants to manage it

and he wants to carry it

and he wants to keep track of it

then it's actually a lesson for him

like his desire

and to have that backpack around

doesn't have to be a problem for me

it can be an opportunity for him to learn

responsibility and all of those things

and I had to reframe it in my mind as that

or else it was just gonna drive me freaking crazy

hahaha and it still drove me a little crazy

but I actually but

but because I reframed it in this other way

it I I

I think it actually came out really

really well and

you know now he doesn't have it

now he still packs a lot of stuff in his backpack

he likes to have he likes to have options and

you know so he likes to

he doesn't like to be bored

and he likes to have options

and so um

but you know he doesn't carry his backpack

and I think that's that was a great example too

of like using consequences and and

and problem solving right

you can't

you can't problem solve in the middle of a meltdown

right you can't reason and that's a reflex

it's so great

like we're just wired to step in and just make it worse

it's it's brutal

yes and you wanna fix it and you don't wanna

you don't wanna kick

pull your kid kicking and screaming out of Legoland

and I have as well done that

so I understand that um

but it is like in the moment

it's like you can give choices and

and that's the thing is

people might see that even as Defiance

because if you have framed it as

you need to leave the backpack

and we're gonna go back in

um he's not one

getting the opportunity to learn that responsibility

and learn those management

um techniques

and he's you're

you're working with motivation

you're teaching them you need to do as I say

and when we're thinking about raising kids up to be

successful adults

whether they have neurodivergence or not

it's you need to learn how to manage your choices

and choose

what are going to be the things that work best for you

as we get older at 3

we only think about what's good for us

but as we get older

we do have to start considering some other people

around us but um

learning that lesson at 3 is so impactful

and I think it's also hard too

cause it's one of those things

like you talk about that backpack

for a child let's say with autism

that backpack may be that item

then they are 15 and they want that backpack still

and so they may like when we talk about this

a lot of these things

kids just kind of grow out of and they figure it out

and with kids with uh

certain types of neurodivergent

uh disorders or neuro

uh excuse me

neurodevelopmental disorders

um

we might have to teach like

you can be okay without the backpack

um but that's where

you know we might do some more um

specific interventions

and help build the environment around them

to learn that they can do that

and we're gonna have to be

the adults who have to manage that for them

and help them learn and it can take a little bit more

effort yeah

yeah I I

yeah and so

I mean because

one of the things that I was basically wondering about

this is is

is at what point do things become

like needing intervention

and what I'm I'm gonna put words in your mouth

as a way to help gauge my understanding here

but what I'm hearing from you is that these are all

you know I mean

we are all gonna face these challenges

and there are strategies and tactics

and techniques that we can use to handle these things

and just because your son

your three year old

wants to carry a backpack everywhere

doesn't mean that he's gonna wanna do that when he's 25

and and you have to deal with that in the

you know in

in the moment anyway

whether

whether there's neurodivergence or not

and so you deal with that

and then at the point

at which you can't use the normal channels

to deal with those things

that's when you know

raise your hand and go get help

and that becomes a natural thing to do

yeah and I think one of the things is that um

working with children and I'm one of those people I

I work in this area

but I also will be the first to say like

our definitions were very black and white

in these definitions for diagnostics

and the reality is that

the answer is not so black and white

it's like oh

this is ADHD versus

this is autism versus this is anxiety

it's not that clear actually

um and we treat it like it is but

and so one of the things I'll tell people is like

you know when we have people come

especially

into the training clinic at the university of Kansas

um a lot of it

I was like yeah

we're just this is just parenting

we just need some parent training

so we kind of know how do we do some of those things

like how do we manage the backpack situation and

and you know

kids are not born with instruction manuals

we figure it out as we go

um but we have a whole science and like

here's how we do it uh

in ways that tend to work better

um and so for some time

for some families we might not even have a diagnosis

we're just like let's do some parent training

let's see how this goes now

it's when that parent training piece is like

it works a little bit or we plateau

we still are having a lot of time and effort

and problems that's where we start thinking

what else is going on here

and what other tools do we need to bring in

um and I'm

I'm a let's

let's start with the simple intervention first right

and then let's see

what we've got and then let's add a little bit more

let's see what we've got and then if it's

we still have questions

or things are not working the way we expect them to

that's where we need to go

look for some more answers

and maybe do some more testing and things like that um

and so I think that

that's an area where I might recommend

people go and ask for more help

another one is especially with the early um childhood

so that birth to about five

if we see kids are not meeting developmental milestones

right so they're not talking or maybe they're talking

but they're not con they're not building that

back and forth with other people

they're not learning they're not toilet training

um like we expect some of those things

um those can be signs that we have a neurodevelopmental

disorder where we might need actual interventions

to help accelerate uh

their development and the thing is

that we see

the brain is just a lot more malleable and plastic

um when we're young

and so if we are seeing those delays

we do recommend going and maybe looking at uh

certain diagnoses because those diagnoses help

they're kind of a ticket to some of these interventions

to help accelerate development

um but we see that with those interventions

we can actually kind of change that trajectory

so we're seeing fewer issues as they get older

how do you manage the risks

of so I I could think of

I can think of a some

some risks and opportunities with um

with those sorts of interventions in terms of like

the strategic implications right

so 1 one of the risks of being sort of labeled with

with ADHD for example

is that it

in the mind of the the child

I can imagine it it can become a crutch

oh well

or an excuse right

oh I'm like this because I'm ADHD or whatever it is

so that's one of the risks

another risk um

might be that um

well let

let let's

let's stick with that one how

how do you manage that

and then on the other side of that

how can you reframe it as an asset right like

like

no you don't

you don't have a disorder

you have you have an asset

you're one of these

10% of people that goes into the new patch

and seeks out like

this is a really really important society capable

and this is where entrepreneurs live

this is where people people build things and

you know create the new world that we're gonna live in

you're that type of person and that's a superpower

and so like how do you

how do you manage that how do you cultivate

you know the

the the

the identity that no

this is part of one of my superpowers

as opposed to this is this affliction

and I and I actually come a

slightly different um

a slightly different approach

when I talk about this with kids

both my my own and my clients

is I always talk about

everybody has strengths and stretches

like you have things that you're really good at

and things that are harder

yeah and we have this shortcut

a label the label is just a shortcut

for us to kind of understand

some of the things that are harder for you

or easier for you and I say

so let's talk about these things

what are things that you're really good at

what are the things that that are easy for you

um and maybe it is

you know I think about I use my son as an example

cause I can't talk too much about my clients

but my son for example

um he can get very hyper focused on things

he can and he's a very gifted musician

just amazing and he's

he can compose

and he's been able to compose since he was 7 years old

which is beautiful and I was like

your brain is pretty unique right

most people can't do that

now he sometimes doesn't believe me

but we've often told him like

no dude but this is pretty cool

um

now let's talk about the things that are hard for you

so for him he can get really easily overwhelmed

or when we were learning music or learning piano

he had had pretty significant perfectionism

and I'd say every single

time we sat down to play meltdown

we had to work through that

and he had to learn to be okay with mistakes

and so I said this is this is your stretch

so it doesn't mean we don't work on it

doesn't mean we just accommodate everything

I always talk about accommodation

with the goal of building the skill

or a way of doing it so you can meet the expectation

and so um

even me as an adult

I know that I can struggle to keep track of things and

and I and I uh

am very curious I go through lots of Berry patches

is one of my problems and um

but I tell people like at

at work I have somebody at my clinic

I said hey

can you help put this down on on our systems

so we built out systems and I said

can you help me keep track of this

and remind me if I don't get to it in three days

and then my students I'm like hey

here's the system please call me out

don't feel like you're calling me out or it's a problem

if I miss something

just remind me cause I probably lost track of it right

and so I I build systems so I can do it pretty well um

it's gonna be imperfect

because I do have some difficulties

with organization and planning

despite that's what I do for a living um

but I've I say here's

here's the accommodations I need

and I ask people to help me out

and that might be the answer sometimes or for my son

it's we're out of place now he's he's right as well

and and he has a 5:04 at school

and it's like hey

when you need to take a test

we're just gonna go to a different room

because it's just hard

with all the other stuff going on around you

for you to focus and we want you to do your best

and or if he's feeling disregulated

he needs to just step out

take a drink of water

and be able to go back in the classroom

and by having those little things that really are not

in my opinion I'm like

these are not significant interventions

they they had more significant interventions

when he was younger but we can work to a way where like

that's just something anybody can really do

as long as there's some understanding

in the environment yeah yeah

I don't understand why this is why that's

why that's controversial I

I mean like

why doesn't everybody get to just go take a drink

when they're just right

let's just let's just set up the system

such that that's something that people can do

you don't have to have this label

you don't have to I I mean

it it just feels like it's counterproductive

to turn that into a big deal

as opposed to no

and sometimes

people need to go take a break and you know

they get really anxiety when taking these tests

and that's just part of that's part of life

yeah and

and that's the main thing is I always say it's

we don't we're not gonna remove the expectation

we're gonna or we might for a period of time

I always say we may need to accommodate

cause we need to meet kids where they're at

if they just don't have the skill

me asking them to demonstrate

a skill that they don't have

is not gonna work but I say

I'm not gonna just say we're gonna accept this

I say what can we get you to

let's work on that skill and let's work on this skill

and we really wanna focus on these are your stretches

everybody has to work on their stretches

so for some kids they're not the fastest runner right

but you know what you still have to go to PE

they're still gonna have you run

and you're gonna get better right

and maybe you wanna play sports

and so you're gonna have to

you know yeah

that's right yeah

so so I think that's the thing is everybody has those

and this is just a shortcut to understand

some of the things that may be easier

or harder for you and um

but you have to tell people and

and we have to figure out what it means for you

as an individual and

it seems to me yeah

and and your own unique

you know this label

whatever it is ADHD

might apply to you in a different way

than it applies to somebody else and

and you know

it it it's

it's meant to give you a shorthand for describing

some of you know

a collection of the attributes

that make certain things hard

and certain things easy but

that doesn't mean that it's the exact same for you

than it is for Joe and

you know everybody's

everybody's everybody's different

everybody has a tough time

everybody struggles and that's just

that's part of life and we gotta get past it yeah

I I will say there's one caveat to

as I'm talking about this

I'm talking about kids like with ADHD

or maybe what we call level 1 autism

where so they're gonna go live independently

and they'll have skills

and they can completely do all these things we

we do have a component of individuals

with neurodevelopmental disorders

such as like intellectual disabilities

or profound autism is what we call it

and these might be people who are going to need more

support um

as they get older so they may

you know never live on their own

or maybe they can't communicate right um

and there

we need to maybe look at that a little bit differently

and we're gonna look at behavior differently and

and honestly

when people see an individual like this and

you know out on

the street they

they usually approach that person a little differently

too so

there may be some places where

I'm only gonna get you so far

so for some uh

kids I work with we're not going to get to the place

where we're going to have me

you know be sitting in the classroom all day right

it's not going to be the best place for them

and we're gonna say

what are the skills that we need to teach

so they have as much autonomy and independence um

as they can have um while being safe and

and giving them the opportunity to be part of society

and I think that's also really important as well

to remember we've got that other side of this

neurodiversity spectrum as well

yeah

now well

so I always like to end these conversations with the

the same question and that is if

uh give me one principle that every parent listen

should should think about or should know when

in their attempt to raise excellent men

so I think it's meet your kids where they're at

don't make excuses for them

but help them help them grow

we have and and use use the resources

and help in the ways that you see

as most important and effective for your child

in the moment cause that is our

that is our goal at the end of the day

is not to have a perfectly behaved child

it's to help um raise

functioning successful and happy adults

yeah I think that's exactly right

where can people learn more about you

and beyond the individual

yeah so people can find us at our website

at WWW dot beyond the individual

dot com uh

we're also on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn

um and if people are interested in our services

uh we can work across 44 states

uh through Psych Pack

so uh

we do provide telehealth

and then more local to the Kansas City area

um interventions in office and home and schools

and all those links are in the show notes

uh Doctor Osmair

thank you so much for sharing your perspective

and educating me on this complex and fascinating

interesting topic um

and uh

and and giving us just uh the

the uh

the benefit of your insight

I really appreciate you being a guest on the show

thanks for having me and to everybody listening

thank you for being part of the Raising Men community

be sure to like and share and and

and interact with us in the comments

and remember that you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino