for men it's like stop taking things personally

like you're a grown man why are you like

oh my four year old did

it's a four year old and what are you doing with like

look we're having fun with this

but I do that with men of like wait

so you expect your teenager to wake up and say dad

you're filled with wisdom

could you share that with me today

like what are you expecting

they're going to push back

and instead of taking it personally

do give them your wisdom because they need it

but

don't fight them all the time over these dumb things

welcome back to the Raising Men podcast

we talk a lot on this show about the fact

that we're navigating uncharted territory

our world is sending our sons

incredibly confusing messages about identity

strength and what it actually means to be a man

today's guest has spent two decades

helping over 1 million parents

stop the power struggles

and start building a roadmap for their children

he's the founder of Celebrate Calm

and the host of the Calm Parenting podcast

he's known for his raw honesty

and his practical scripts

that actually work in the heat of the moment

Kirk Martin welcome to raising men

dude I'm so psyched to be here haha

I'm so psyched to have you

it is just an absolute pleasure

and let's let's get right into it

now I've heard you say that the traits

that make a child difficult

like things like Defiance or arguing like an attorney

are the same traits that make them successful leaders

and entrepreneurs as adults

and absolutely

that's absolutely what my mom used to say about me

you're gonna be an amazing lawyer someday

which I never was because man

would I argue about anything

and my kids have inherited that from me

but how can the parents of boys refrain

that stubbornness

as conviction that we want them to have as men

it I

I mean you have to consciously look at that child

like I remember our son Casey

very strong will

came out of the womb with boxing gloves on

and I just remember at one point

I made a shift from like

why do you always have to argue with me

can't you just listen to me

and then I looked at him one day

I remember where I was

we were living in Nashville and I said case

you know what I need to apologize

cause here's what I've overlooked

you're really good at arguing

and what that tells me is this

you can see patterns in things

that's why you're so good with Legos

you're good at chess and checkers

and you're good at arguing

because you recognize the pattern in an argument

you know what I'm going to say before I even say it

you're really good at understanding human nature

and that's why you're so good at pushing buttons

you're also really good when there's an argument

you have to listen

and then you have to think critically

and tear apart my arguments

which you do really well

and then you have to communicate persuasively

and be persistent you are all of those things

and that will serve you well

and I remember he looked at me like what

like why aren't you yelling at me

and I was like cause

I just realized there's a lot of skills within arguing

and we've wasted the first 10 or 12 years of your life

yeah just arguing

I wanna help you take those

channel those skills

into something that's more practical

and in a way that actually will advance you in life

yeah different

you just have to reframe it in your mind from like

you know

from men it's like

stop taking things personally

like you're a grown man why are you like

oh my four

year old did it's a four year old

and what are you doing with like look

we're having fun with this

but I do that with men of like wait

so you expect your teenager to wake up and say dad

you're filled with wisdom

could you share that with me today

like what are you expecting they're going to push back

and instead of taking it personally

do give them your wisdom because they need it

but don't fight them all the time

over these dumb things yeah

and and by the way that

skill of asking the question

and pushing back on authority

and not accepting the answer

just because it's coming from somebody who

you know outranks them

that is a tremendously important skill

it it was what will keep them as an individual

it was what will allow them to succeed in life

and so man we gotta cultivate it

even though it's maddening

and even though it presses your buttons

and these guys the these guys really

really know how to how to make you mad

we gotta cultivate that somehow yeah

cause I would refrain it as

it's a competitive advantage

uh huh and you can put boundaries on it right

like I remember sometimes when

Casey would come after me pretty hard

and I'd say hey

that's not gonna work for you

I know what you want

so why don't you rephrase that right

cause this will just get you

cause you to

lose your driver's license or your video games

yeah but I'm good with the spirit behind it

or I'd say hey

let me show you how to disagree with me respectfully

yeah and so it's training them for hey

here's certain areas in lifetimes where you just do

do what the man wants because you're trying to get some

to something larger

and here are the times where you say no

that's stupid that's arbitrary

right even with school

I told him I was like

look most of what you're learning is arbitrary

you don't need this in life

but you want the piece of paper

so you're smart enough

to figure out what the teacher really wants

yeah so figure out

to give them

the minimal work that you need to do to get that done

but I want you spending your other energy on your ideas

developing leadership uh

resilience doing really hard things in life

yeah

yeah I

I had an experience about uh

three weeks ago now with my boy

he got sent home from school

and he was sent home from school

because he got in a fight with a

with a girl in his class

and he ended up kind of holding her up against a fence

and they were fighting and he

and he did that um

well so I ended up asking him about it

and he told me the story

and she was messing with him

like she was trying to get him mad and it worked and

and he felt bad that he got mad and she ended up

they're actually really good friends

and she ended up feeling bad

that he got in so much trouble over it and

you know it was

it was really blown out of proportion by the school

and it was blown out of proportion

because he was a boy and she was a girl

and it was blown out of proportion

he's really big yeah

he's uh

he's a first grader and he looks like a fifth grader

yeah and so it freaked the teachers out yeah

and I sat there and I listened to the story and I said

listen man it's not fair

but the fact is that you are

you're a big kid

you're you're the size of a much

much older kid and so people see you

and they see you reacting in a way that's physical

towards somebody and they're much smaller than you

and especially if it's a girl right

they're you're

they're gonna get scared in a way

they wouldn't get scared if she did that to you

or if a smaller boy did that to you or somebody else

right and it's not fair and it's not right

but it's reality

and you're just gonna have to figure out

and it's gonna make you stronger

because you're gonna be able to figure out this stuff

faster and better than other people

are gonna have to but you're gonna have to do it

and it it worked it

it uh

we ended up having a really nice day

he helped me with my work that day and uh

so cause he wasn't allowed to

you know watch his tablet all day because

you know this is supposed to be

I have discipline and uh

but we had a really great day and

and um

and you know

I mean he

he had a different perspective on it see

I like what you're doing there

because you're just being honest

yeah

and you're reading the situation saying this is reality

and I believe I love the phrase

I believe you're capable

of adapting yourself to different reality

and so I thought that was all like

that's great and then he was like okay

so then you know

in the future you can kind of problem solve of like

okay

what happens if or when other kids push your buttons

yeah how you gonna react to it

how you gonna respond so I

I love that you did that I think it's perfect yeah

you know I

one of your superpowers is generating scripts

right for

for dealing with particular behaviors and um

I found like there is nobody in my entire life

who's ever been able to push my buttons

the way that my boy is I'm a really

really even killed guy

and I just don't get angry very fast

and then this like little 18

month old boy comes out

and he can figure out how to make me more angry

more quickly than anybody in my entire life

and I

and I really admire this concept of how do we you know

I I have this I have this concept of

of the Conan the barbarian brain

the the uh

the amygdala versus the Sherlock Holmes brain uh

the prefrontal cortex

and you wanna stay in the Sherlock Holmes brain

and your scripts are a way to do that

they're a way of training your Conan

the barbarian brain

to get yourself up to your Sherlock Holmes brain

let's talk more about that

so I I like that a lot

cause I like the Sherlock Holmes thing

is the curiosity piece yeah right

and it's like I think for most men this is true

our goal like my wife's goal mom is like

well I want my kids to feel loved right

and for us as men it's like

well I want my son

not to make the same stupid mistakes I made

so he can crush it in life right

and then cause that makes me feel good

he's gonna be successful

and that's a good thing to want

and so I think our motives in that are very noble

but then we sabotage it all the time

because we're so reactive right

and then our kids are like

hey you're supposed to be my hero dad

but like you lose it in traffic or you get upset at me

so I think part of it is not taking it personally

realizing that this is normal and that uh

you know what switch

it's not my job to control other human beings

cause I I was trying to control Casey

and the quickest way to change your child's behavior

is to first

control your own and so

the two things I started with

in a very practical way were body posture

like type a guy walk into a room

you know how many to your mother like that

why are there Legos all over the floor

creates a defensive response escalates things yeah

so I began sitting down because when I sit

and then I problem solve

and I think one of the things that's really great

for guys or that gives us an

is we tend to be really good at this stuff

at the office like in our work

so things are going wrong at the office

sales are down we're not like sales are down

if you guys don't sell more

you're fired that's kind of what we do some people are

but they're not that's not the the good people aren't

yeah the good the good leaders aren't right

so it worked like the good leader is like okay

let's sit down why are sales down

do we have competition is our pricing off

let's problem solve come up with an action plan

so when I walk through the door sometimes as men

all of that leaves and it's like

there's Legos on the floor and you can't do this

so I always ask men like

go into your home for a couple days

and just treat your kids

almost like they're your colleagues at work

or a young person you're mentoring at work

because at the office

if someone like a young guy messes up

you're not like you know what

if you don't start doing it right

you're fired you can do that

yeah but instead you say hey

I you have a lot of promise

I've seen your work

that last project that you did not up to standard

so once you come let's go for a walk

let's talk it through

and I'll show you how to do it better

so that model with your child when they're messing up

instead of like why do you do that

you keep doing that you lose your stuff

that's not really discipline

that's just flailing right

that's just like

I'm frustrated because you're being inconvenient

you are you're making life harder for me

so instead I go into okay

so I get that

you stayed up late last night to sneak your iPad

or sneak food pretty common with our kids

instead of like why would you do that

it's like well

start to think why would you do that well right

it's freaking fun right yeah

I know the reason why you would do that

it's a challenge yeah

they've got a their pattern seer

so he knows like

and if you really go in with that Sherlock Holmes

which I love which my favorite phrase is hey

I'm curious like

of course of course

you would sneak stuff in the middle of the night

what boy doesn't want to do that

like stop shaming kids

for stuff that you and I did when we were young

like right so so you're not excusing it hey

of course you would do that

I'm just curious what did you get out of that

and when you listen to them or lead them in it okay

so you get bored

so you like your brain stimulated you like a challenge

well you're good at seeing patterns

you know

when I go to bed that I get up one time to pee

like an hour after I go to bed

but then I'm asleep

so you waited for that time to sneak down the stairs

you had set it up before I had locks on the cabinets

but you Learned how to you know open up the lock why

cause you're really good thinker yeah

can we appreciate the ingenuity here

yes I appreciate look

there's ingenuity there

there's planning and then you watch CSI

so you know to wipe down the counters with alcohol

so I can't see your fingerprints

you disabled our cameras because you know how to go

but right so you go through that and you're like okay

so I see a lot of great stuff there

if you continue to do that

you're just gonna lose stuff like it just doesn't work

yeah but

I bet we could brainstorm

three different ways to get all those needs met

in positive ways of like

you're like a born entrepreneur

so rather wasting all your energy

doing something

that's going to cause you to lose stuff

why don't we start your own little business right yeah

you can make money that's exactly what I was thinking

let's let's do a YouTube channel

or let's sell something online or yes

yeah like

and that's see that's discipline

because now you're teaching like

especially with the add strong will kids

what I wanted to teach my son is look

you have a need for intensity and for brain stimulation

and you're either going to get that met

let's be honest through porn

through gambling through cheating on girls

cause those are all rushes that boy

that's men from the beginning of time

have effed up their lives that way right yeah

so that's the negative way

or if you got a big heart service projects

you're an entrepreneur starting your own business

then you get to control stuff

you make money you give it away

so I'm teaching them from a young age

this is what you need and you can either go this path

or I can show you this path

and now they can make a choice

rather than be like

many of us who didn't realize this till we were like 35

and we were hooked on certain things

because that was just stimulating our brains right

yeah that that's such a healthy way to look at it

I I

you know when I was when I was kind of growing up

that's when add first started becoming a thing

and it it was almost like

you know you get this diagnosis and oh

you're falling behind in school because you're broken

that was the that was the

the message that it felt like they were getting sent

but right

I love the way that you reframe it and in fact

I think that sort of victim mentality has gotten worse

not better over time

but even though we understand

these mechanisms a lot better

and it's just neurodiversity

it's not really I mean you're not broken

you you're just not wired

in a way that the traditional school system

expects you to be and wants you to be

and so you're gonna have to figure that out

you're gonna have to figure out how to thrive

but I and

and this is what I love about your message

is that that's not something that's broken

that is a unique capability that you have

that you can leverage

you're just gonna have to figure out how that

fits in to the world

and make it so that it is a superpower of yours

as opposed to this like

I don't know weakness or something right

so that was kind of the talk I had with Casey

when he was in that 10 11 12 range and by the way

I had fun with it and I was like

look the other kids should be diagnosed with like

energy deficiency disorder

yeah exactly right

like why are they like compliance disorder

like how's that going to serve

compliance disorder that's the perfect way to put it

right like sheep syndrome

well serious

I mean honestly

if you think about it right

like so

you're rewarding kids for literally

sitting still all day not questioning anyone

just memorizing information on a test

that they're going to forget

as if it's unnatural

that's unnatural yes

the talk with Casey was hey look

you've got a natural weakness

which is you struggle with short term memory

yeah well

in order to do well in school

you really have to have good short term memory

to memorize information for a test

so school's going to be harder

now the good side of that is

people who usually struggle with short term memory

have better critical thinking skills

they're more visionary they can see context

now that that's what companies pay for

companies don't pay people a lot of money

just to carry out tasks I can get anybody to do that

what I need and what companies will need

is someone who can do this

in a fast moving environment

they can think they can analyze a lot of data

and they can prioritize and they can make decisions

following directions is not that great of a skill

making decisions means okay

I have to weigh a lot of data

I have to analyze risk reward

and then I have to have the courage to possibly fail

by making a decision

and what I want our kids to know is yes

school's just gonna be tougher for you

but that doesn't mean you're dumb

it's just a lot of it is arbitrary

but you only spend like the first what

from age 4 to 22 in school yeah

but the rest of your life is spent in the adult world

that is going to value all these other skills

and and I would encourage parents with this

who are listening

our son is 32 now he works a little bit with me

but he has a job

he's actually where your brother lives

he live on the other side of the pass nice

all of the qualities that he got in trouble for

at school are the very qualities that got him promoted

very quickly because here's what his bosses know

they give him an objective

and they don't have to worry about it

he just says got it

I'll take care of it I can problem solve

I can lead a team I'm persuasive

I'll get it done for you yeah

but that's not sitting still and memorizing information

and what happens to a lot of our kids

that are neurodivergent is they feel like

to your point I'm less than I'm slower

I'm not as smart

and once you crush a child's confidence

it's really hard to get it back

so I'm not denying either hey

you've got some weaknesses

just like every other person on the planet yes

it's it's that's why I go back sometimes with like

why don't we label them with compliance disorder

and energy deficiency yeah disorder or uh

you have risk aversion disorder well

you know

the wealthiest people in the world are risk takers yeah

and boys especially are made to take risks right

and so why like in my perfect world

I would be a teacher and talk to the compliant

good kids in class and be like

congratulations guys like

you're gonna

you're gonna crush it for 12 years in school

and everybody's going to love you

and then you're gonna get out in the real world

and most of these skills aren't gonna transfer

and you're probably going to be working for the add

kids who were in trouble on my class

because they're gonna start their own business

and they're going to need rule followers

to carry out their vision

like I'm being a little facetious

but that's also largely true yeah

and so anyway I

I like reframing for our kids and for teachers

and for parents so you don't get sucked into

what are we gonna do with this child

how's he going to succeed

yeah it's so that what

what comes to mind there is that if you're one of the

the standard compliant good kids

then that is gonna be a nice smooth groove for you

you're gonna have you're gonna be fine

that's great you're gonna do great in school

and but to succeed in the real world

you need that capability

you need to understand where the grooves are

and you need to be able to stay in your lane

when that's required of you

but you also need this other thing

you need to be able to have this grand vision

you need the thing that

the neurodivergent kids are coming out of the box with

and so if you're one of the neurodivergent kids

you have been given a gift

which is that

you're gonna be forced to develop both skills

because school is gonna pound that into you

and in order just to graduate

you're gonna have to figure out how

that lane thing works

but you also naturally have this other skill

these other poor guys

they've got the groove thing down and they're

so they're not gonna have a tough time learning that

but they will never learn this other thing

and that means

they're always gonna be working for other people

they're always gonna you know

for the most part

and that is a it's a real gift in that respect

yeah and and look

there's

part of it is like the kids who just naturally do well

I mean many of them are gonna go along go

they're gonna be doctors and attorneys

and have great lives and like it's

it's smoother and easier yeah

I think an end probably less fulfilling

than someone who has a vision and carries that out yeah

but one of the um

examples I give is so two kids come home from school

one kid does the worksheet as expected

and then goes in the next day

and then the teacher is like

oh you're so good at doing homework

thanks for doing that it's great

that's fine but then some of us have kids

especially boys who are like

I don't want to do stupid homework sheet

but they'll be in the other room

like building a robot or playing with their Legos

and think what they're doing

they get a vision in their brain

they're picturing something

using their imagination that I want to build

then they have to decide and make choices okay

it's a little top heavy so I have to take that off

like there's a lot of thinking that goes into that

they go into school the next day

where's your homework well

I didn't do it okay

you're a bad kid you don't follow directions

I know but I built a freaking robot right

and so I'm not saying don't have your kids do homework

but it's really important to teach your kids like hey

that worksheet for say like

my wife just is really good at school stuff

I'm like but that didn't that didn't stretch you at all

that wasn't hard in fact

that was doing homework was comforting for you

you were good at that if your homework had been

create something from scratch and risk failure

you would have been the one who failed and did right

like I'm saying the same thing as you yeah

I think our kids but they need to know that hey

you're gonna be good in the real world

school's gonna be tougher

but to your point

you're going to develop both sides that you can use

yeah yeah

that is such a I mean

this this reframing is a superpower right

it it should be a reflex to think about things

you know how is this an asset

you know how is this how is this problem

I I

I used to have a business mentor that that

that used to tell me that

your biggest problem is also your biggest opportunity

and vice versa

and that's

you know that that's that's a way to think about it

and and it's that way you know

it's that way for the kids too yeah

it's I mean I think

I think I probably spend my whole life reframing right

like there's a there's a uh

thing out now like kids with PDA

pathological demand avoidance well

it's a horribly

it's a horrible label because the truth is

they don't avoid demands they reject external demands

because they want to carry out the internal demands

yeah so they have a superpower that says

I can prioritize

so much of what you're asking me to do mom

dad and teachers isn't important

and so

but we miss that because we fall into that trap of well

you have to do this

and I'm at the point in my life where like no

you actually don't have to do it

like I know our anxiety as parents of like well

they have to learn no

they could be successful

and pay someone to make them meals right yeah

although most of the neurodivergent people that I know

are actually really good cooks

and your add kids if you give them an option

because what are they doing

they're taking all these ingredients

and they're creating order out of it

they're not gonna follow directions

and they're not gonna clean up

but then

there's something tangible they get from creating

and so like our son

we just went over to his house the other night

he's like the best cook I know

no kidding he's an add kid

and so and he does know how to clean up now

which is nice but um

but yeah look at your kids in a different way

maybe reframe your role yeah

from like the old like well

my job is just to tell them to behave

and if they don't they get punished too

no I'm a giver of wisdom

I've got a lifetime of wisdom

and so instead of reacting

and getting upset that my child got in trouble

it's like I always tell men

it's like you were a dopey 8 year old

once I mean

like and you were dopey 14 year old

it's like they're figuring life out for the first time

so if your child is impulsive and doesn't always listen

okay it's not the end of the world

like don't react to it

just practice impulse control with them

yeah I think

you know one of the reflexes that I

that I had early on especially was that this behavior

this pushback was

it was like a a challenge to my authority

and you know

my I view myself as in a particular way

and part of the reason why it pushed my button so hard

and it made me so mad is because

I would connect the dots out into the future

and where that LED you know

he's a criminal and he's in jail

and I look like the worst dad in the world

and at at the end of the story

that's what he's telling me

you're him arguing with me

is him communicating to me that you're a bad dad

and I don't want to feel like a bad dad

and so I get mad

and it's like okay

first of all

he's just reacting right

he doesn't have a Sherlock brain at all

he only has his Conan the barbarian brain

and so he's just doing what feels right

and so first of all

that behavior isn't going to continue in the future

forever he will eventually have a prefrontal cortex

that helps him um

you know strategize

and then second of all like

this isn't about you this isn't about your authority

this isn't about what you look like as a dad

this is about

giving him

the skills and capabilities to thrive in the world

and that's a Marathon you do that by inches

and so what can I do in this moment

to help move that ball forward another inch

and at the end of the story for me

for the most part

it came down to staying calm and taking a beat

yeah control yeah

I yeah

that was mine I mean

my dad was career military

so it was like yes sir

yes sir

like oh my goodness

so that is that is deep inside of you

and then you take is like

he's challenging my authority

what I found is most of these kids are not uh

challenging your authority

they're and they're not rejecting it

they're rejecting your anxiety and your control issues

yeah and so

I'll give you one example of like calming a kid down

so common situation

Casey would be in the kitchen yelling at my wife

well then I come in as the guys like hey

how many times have I told you

you don't talk to your mother like that

nothing really you're screaming at him right

don't yell at people haha

yeah well

I remember one time I said

you need to calm down and he said

you know what you're 35

apparently you haven't mastered that skill

like he was a smart ass to say my friend

I know because at the time I didn't take it that well

of course not but it was true

but it was true yeah

so I walk in and so I began to escalate

and then he would come back with some

you know keep it up

keep it up young man you know

you already lost your video games one week

you wanna make it four

and the strong willed child was like yeah

just just take him away

cause I'll call your bluff on that

cause we

as guys often yell out consequences we can't keep

that's right right

like yeah

we're just gonna take it away for a month

and I'm gonna go away on a business trip

so my wife has to enforce it

and so he would go stomping off up to his room

slam his door cause he knew that was a trigger right

you don't have to respect me

but you're gonna respect my door

I worked hard to pay for that door

so then I would come downstairs and think

I just stood up for my wife

and she was thinking no

you didn't yeah

you just created an emotional mess

I now have to go up to our son's bedroom

and let him know your father doesn't hate you

he just has some unresolved dad issues right

like and she had to clean up the mess

and so let me give you this quick formulation

for calming kids down yeah

um the first thing you do is not try to calm them down

it's give them something they're in control of

because the reason all of us react is

a perceived loss of control

and so we react so with my son sometimes like

and I did this with a family

the child loves fishing

so you're getting in this combustible situation

I first control myself and realize

if I come in like this I'm pouring fuel on the fire

it gets worse yeah

so body posture sitting down

tone of voice for men

this is easy even matter of fact tone

I don't do that mom tone well buddy

I can tell you're really upset

that's infuriating to kids

so if your wives are doing that

have them listen to the podcast

cause I go through that like

please stop with that sing songy mommy voice

where we talk about identifying your

that infuriates kids so

and then if I come in you know what

you better stop it right now

where your child knows right away

my dad is really amped up

if I just push him a little

he's going to lose it even matter of fact tone

it's a very business like tone

really important

giving the child something they're in control of

hey I just remembered this weekend we're going fishing

if you could go to the garage

and organize the fishing lures

oh man that would really help me out

so now the child is doing something

organizing something with their hands

that's calming third thing um

motion changes emotion movement

so I come in the the kitchen and say

hey case I can tell you're frustrated listen

I'd hold up a football

I'm going in the backyard when you're ready

if you wanna play catch

I'll help you out with this hey case

I'm gonna dump some Legos out in the uh

living room when you're ready

come in we'll build a spaceship

so there's an invitation

instead of go to your room away from me

which communicates

I can't handle you when you're at your worst

so I have to send you away from me

and we don't want to do that as guys

what I want is when you're at your worst

oh I can handle it come outside

come sit on the floor in that is some movement

some motion guys it can be um hey you know what

I just remembered I forgot something from the store

you wanna run up to the store

hey along the way we'll stop and grab a couple tacos

that is fantastic

because now you're next to your child

and you're not giving eye contact

that is very very calming

and then the final thing I would mention is intensity

and this is a really cool thing

with really intense kids so kid comes home from school

builds a paper airplane flies it

it doesn't fly right

the neurotypical kids are like

oh darn it didn't work

I'll build another one the intense kids are like

stupid airplane I hate this airplane

I'm stupid and all good parents come in

oh buddy

that was a good airplane and your child's like duh

if it were a good airplane

it would have flown right

yeah so instead the intensity is this

oh man if I were you

I'd be frustrated too of course you're frustrated

you would plant

you'd been thinking of building that airplane

all day long you put time into it

doesn't fly right

oh I'd be P O too

yeah

there is something extremely calming about that of like

yeah right now

what I didn't say is so

go ahead and punch a hole in the wall

or hit your sister I didn't say

I just said you should be frustrated

listen I've got to go to the bathroom

when I get back I'll problem solve and we'll fix this

so I gave the child some space

because when a kid's upset

when I'm upset I don't want people looking at me

because I'm a little bit embarrassed

that I got that upset right

so I just did this in a podcast where I got upset

cause I had recorded a podcast

cause I just record my own

and then I went to load it and it didn't record

so my wife heard some uh

language coming from the room that wasn't oh darn

I guess I get to do it again

so I'm dropping F bomb in here

and she said she came in and she said instead of like

oh honey you're so good at it

it's not a big deal I would have been like

screw you

so instead she said oh man

that was a good take I yeah

that sucks when that happens

and then like two minutes later she said hey

when you get a chance

we could use more kindling and firewood

and I was like you just celebrate calmed me right

cause she knew if I go outside and split wood

that is so satisfying that I won't throw things right

so like that

she's using your own strategies against you man

and they work that's amazing

we use it all the time we're like

did you just celebrate call me

and I was like yes

because it's effective yeah

yeah I think

you know it was one of the unlocks for me in

in doing this whole project

has been the realization that um in both of my kids

it

it feels like they really only want one of two things

or both of two things

there's this tension they have between

connection and independence

and when they feel like they have a lot of connection

it feels like they want a lot more independence

and vice versa yeah

and often times

they will behave when they want one thing

they will behave in the way that gets them

the opposite of that one thing

so they want connection and so they'll say

I hate you get away from me and like

okay if you want connection

then don't tell me that I'm gonna leave

and then you're not gonna have any more connection

it's the weirdest thing

but that's what they do and once I realized that

I started modeling their behavior in my mind as okay

what are they seeking here

and how can I give that to them

in a way that is consistent with our values

as opposed to just responding to you pouting or you or

or or you whining or whatever

and your mechanism to or your script to say

here

I'm gonna go over here I'm gonna dump out the Legos

meet me over here when you're ready

is such the perfect way

to get your own distance from the situation'cause

if you like in my

in my experience if I stay in that situation

I'm gonna continue getting mad

and then I'm gonna get disregulated

and then it's gonna fall apart

so I need to get some distance

but I need to get some distance in a way

that doesn't erode our connection

and what your script about pouring out the Legos

and say when you're ready

come over here and we'll build a spaceship

is the perfect way to do that

because I'm offering the connection

we can have the connection

but implied in that is

but we need to have things calm when and

and we're gonna change our posture

we're gonna change our location

we're gonna change our entire energy

in a way that enables that man

do I love that yeah and it's so you know what I like

I like cause it's guy friendly yeah

cause a lot of like the more mom female things are like

let's just have long talks right

I don't like long talks so mine was like hey

you wanna grab some chips

I'll grab some salsa meet you out on the deck well

that's quick and easy we're eating now my feet are up

like it just changes the dynamic from you're right

if I stayed in the kitchen

you know what

we need to have a talk about your attitude

young man like

when has that in the history of mankind ever worked

like would it work with you now

like literally right now if somebody did that to you

would you respond well to it

and no and so

so I like the invitation I do like the words hey

when you're ready

because it gives them a sense of ownership and control

yeah because when that child

when your child comes and walks outside to play catch

or walks into the living room and sits down

your child has just humbled himself or herself

cause that is humbling to walk into that room after

I just yelled at mom yeah

I just called you a jerk that's humility

but there's also trust

I'm trusting that when I come follow you

or get in the car to go get tacos

that you're not just going to ream me

but you're gonna help me and I will tell you

the beauty of this is that like Casey's 32 now

my some of my most meaningful parts in life

are when he texts me and says

hey dad

can I ask you about something

and I'm like yes

this is what I've lived for

absolutely no question

and when he wants like this summer

cause I'm getting older

and I can still kick his butt sometimes in hiking

not really but I like to think that sure

he planned a uh

two week overseas hiking trip for us

just the two of us and I was like

okay cool

my son wants to spend two weeks with me hiking

like all that time paid off right

that's pretty cool and

but I want the men to know

if I can add one thing it's not about being weak

you're not letting them get away with things

you're not letting that you're not being a pushover

cause I can say when he comes with attitude look

that's not gonna work I can tell you

you're looking for my intensity

it's not gonna work this way

but if you wanna go play catch

if you wanna build in a basement

if you wanna play guitar I'm good

I'm cool with that so there's no part of this is

cause men always worry about being weak

yeah and like that whole authority thing

it's like I don't have to prove my authority

like there's never been a doubt

even with Casey being 32 I'm still dad

like that's never been in doubt with your kids

yeah and it actually ruins your authority

if you're always trying to use it or prove it

that's right if you have to prove your authority

you don't have you don't have it right

like yeah

you're like

my dad was always you're going to respect me

and I was like well

I just lost respect for you right yeah

you we've just set the table where I don't respect you

and I probably never will

I just fear you cause you're really scary

yeah that's right wow yeah

I love that now I

you know you mentioned um

modeling behavior and you know

it one of the

in fact the most effective way that we can influence

our boys behavior

is to model the kind of behavior that we're looking at

or that that

that we want to do ourselves

and so they're looking to us to

to try and figure out and see what a

what a fit or excellent man looks like

if you had to pick one principle

and I I

I love to finish these discussions up by asking this

question if you had to pick one principle

um for how we model excellent masculinity

not through what we say but what we do and how we

and how we carry ourselves and handle our own struggles

what what would that principle be

I think it's a character trait

I'd say humility

cause humility is confidence

I don't have to prove anything

I don't have to push anything

I take the humble route

I think it's one thing that Casey has followed

like I watch him with his peers

with people that work for him

and he's a big like he's a tall

he's a tall guy with a kind of a

I wouldn't say aggressive manner

but he's a big Casey is a big personality

but when I go over and I see him working

and I hear like people

I'm like you nail the humility part

I just think it's humility is leadership

humility is listening humility is problem solving

humility is being gracious toward people

because it takes confidence too right

like anyway

I I don't know if that's the right answer

what you think that's a perfect answer

I I think that's absolutely perfect

yeah

I want to thank you so much for being here today with

with sharing your wisdom you have given us

you more than just parenting advice

um you

you've given us a way of of looking in the mirror and

and um

and and really helping our

our our mission in in helping our

our boys thrive I really appreciate it dude

I appreciate what you're doing

like this focus with men and their sons is like

is so needed

and you have Learned so much like on your own

like you've given your kids the biggest

the greatest gift you broke generational patterns

and now they're not going to have to

I always tell my son you're not going to have to uh

worry about being a jerk as much as I did right yeah

like yeah yeah

you'll you'll have whatever your own challenges are

but hopefully you'll be higher level challenges

higher level

they're starting at a different starting point

so anyway I appreciate what you're doing

so if we can ever help let us know

that's kind of you to say thank you so much

and if you found this today's episode helpful

please share it with another parent

who might be feeling

overwhelmed by the intensity of their son

you can find all the scripts and the resources Kirk uh

has at his disposal

and everything that he's mentioned in the show notes

uh or at raising dot men

until next time remember

you are a great parent yeah

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino