that is not giving men an out for not experiencing

like the full breath of who they are

cause I actually agree with you that

I think it actually does cultivate a strength

but I think understanding the reason why men do that

and why

what's in our bodies and in our psychology to do is

is an important

like place to understand at the ground level

well and it's a virtue

being able to turn that valve is a virtue

hello and welcome back to Raising Men

today I'm joined by Ryan Walton

he's a husband a father

and the founder of a coaching program called

daring to Dad

Ryan's work calls men to live courageously

lead intentionally

and father from a place of integrity

Ryan thank you so much for joining us on raising men

yeah man I'm I'm so glad to be here

so grateful for the work you're doing

and putting out there for men and fathers

it it means a lot so thanks for asking me to be on

I really appreciate you being part of it now okay

so I'm gonna ask the million dollar question

why do we coast

why do we coast um

we coast because um it's easy

because it's easier to avoid than to confront

you know

one of my my favorite uh

psycho psychologists and and thinkers

Carl Jung

talks about that the greatest challenge we ever face

and battle we ever fight is the

the the inward one to get to know ourselves and to um

challenge and push ourselves

and that's that's truly the difficult battle we face

and so it's easier to avoid

I also think we are uh

part of a culture and a society

and a market that profits off men being numb

that's so true

yeah yeah

that is so true so how do I know

you know how do I know that I'm doing it

what is what is the difference between

coasting in an unhealthy way

and just kind of like

resting on my laurels a little bit after a victory

yeah

um it's

it's awareness so I

I think coasting in life

you know when

when we we

there's a deep knowing right

there's a feeling that

we are not living the life that we set out to live

there's a deep knowing inside of us that feels

that something is off

something is wrong in the stillness

right in the

the the early mornings

the late nights when we're alone with ourselves

I also think you know um

often coasting comes from a

a lack of awareness of of what is leading us right

so

um so often in our lives

we are being LED by our feelings

by our emotions it's driving us to do certain things

that we're not even not even really aware of

so we we find ourselves addicted

we find ourselves addicted to alcohol porn

weed um

sex whatever it is right

and we find ourselves driven to these things

because our lives are filled with these feelings

these emotions these experiences that are unaddressed

right and so going back to avoiding

we avoid them by doing these other things right

so it's not that

um

a a night of binging Netflix

right is a bad thing yeah

but often we are pulled into that

out of a place of like avoiding something else

you know it

it's our

what what I do as a coach

and I think the responsibility we have as humans

as men is to become aware of the forces in our lives

that are driving us to behave

or coast in a certain way right

what are

what are the things and how do we become more mindful

more aware of these things that are impacting us

and driving us forward

yeah it's almost

so

what I'm hearing from you is that it's intentionality

like okay

if you're meaning to rest between bouts of success

and you're doing that on purpose and

you know that's what you're doing

and there are guardrails around it

then that's fine yeah

but if you're falling into the trap of addiction

or you're falling into the

and you know

one of the most pernicious things

I think about social media is it

it is it feels like you're doing something

but it's actually avoidance

yeah and those are the worst possible things you can do

well it's kind of like

like you know

walking the dog who's walking

are you

are you walking the dog or is the dog walking you

yeah and

and often these things we have surrendered our

the agency that we have in our lives

the power we have to make these decisions consciously

to being driven by our um

our insecurities our shame

the things that we're avoiding in life

and we numb out by these other things right

and it's just much easier to do that

and again when we're in a container

or in a culture that profits off us being numb right

you mentioned social media right

they want that these these companies

these platforms want all of your time

they want you to numb out

they want you to doom scroll

right and so it feeds into

I think a

a place where we we can easily slip into what

what you refer to as like

as coasting or avoidance right

um so

yeah

I think that's a really useful way to frame it because

you know I think a lot of people

our American culture really um

rewards and admires iconoclasts

and there is nothing less iconoclastic than sitting

doomscrolling Twitter or or

or Facebook and yet

I think a lot of people feel like they're

you know fighting the machine somehow

when they're doing that and

but they don't recognize that no

no no

those people that's the way they make money

they make money sitting you

getting you scrolling yeah

and that is its own version of the man holding you down

or whatever it is

that you think you're fighting against yeah

you know that's

that's something to consider yeah

and you know again

if if there's an intentionality to it

then that's one thing but right

if there's but

but if but if it's a pitfall that you

that you're falling into

with spikes on the bottom of it

well then you need to be careful

right and

and we have a responsibility as well

like you and I who are a part of this

you know we

we create content right

to be to be consumed and

and we we put that out there right

and we have to always be aware of even our time

and doing that in a conscious way and and

and

we're trying to put some meaningful things out there

and but yeah

you're you're right and

and it's a message that one

I have to embody

it's also a message that I send to my kids about like

hey don't become a slave to this

cause it it

it will enslave you it's

it's designed to create an addiction right

um and

you know companies leverage this

you know the

the I think the porn industry leverages this

a lot of

these kinds of things create an environment for men

in particular

cause I know that account we're talking about

to find it really easy to numb out and to coast

and to distract ourselves

yeah the

the the model that I think about with respect to that

is that you know we

we we have two brains in us

I call I call one of them the Conan

the barbarian brain and I call the other one the

the Sherlock Holmes brain

and in in men and boys

especially the

the Conan the barbarian brain

the Sherlock Holmes brain develops much

much later it's the prefrontal cortex

and it develops much much later in

in boys and men than it does in girls and women

and um

and sometimes it doesn't ever get

take control at all

and these you know

these companies

what they're trying to do is hijack you and keep you in

kind of the barbarian brain

because that's where you're just reacting and you're

and you're you're not actually taking the signals that

that brain is telling you and

and applying it to your values

and making an intentional decision

you're just doing the thing

yeah yeah

well it keeps us

to

another layer is that it keeps us out of relationship

yeah it keeps us online and out of

relationship right

yeah and

and don't get me wrong I

there are genuine connections in relationships

with people via like

social media and things like that

that are good that's how

that's how you and I are here

right here in this moment right

that's right we

we met through an online environment

and I I

I want to make sure that I

I say that but I do think

it also has the ability to keep us out of real

in person relationships with other men

which is I think one of the key elements in the

the healing of men in their lives

is being in community and relationship with each other

to be seen to show up um

with with other men in an authentic

meaningful way and often times the ways that we um

numb out are often done in isolation

and isolation is I think the

the man killer and so uh

I I think yeah

again

this isn't a bull we

we can't just simply blame these

you know companies and these algorithms

although that's part of it

we have to be able to look at ourselves as well

and how we're interacting

so it's it's

it's not just it's not just one answer

it's it's

it's a layer of things

yeah blaming Facebook is fine

yeah but it's not actionable right

OK I yeah

Facebook is a pernicious force that is

ruining men's lives let's

let's go with that OK

so what what are you gonna do about it

yeah um

I think everything is holding

holding things those things in the balance and

you know we have to

come to a point in all of our lives

where we take ownership

of the way that we are showing up

and our and take ownership of our lives

and yes

are there systems in play in the world right now

that are that are hurting people

you know I

I I tend to work with a lot of just uh

working class men in the world

and yes there are economical

social

political things happening in the world that impact us

right and we have to recognize

the systems and structures in place

and we cannot let that absolve us of the responsibility

we have to take the next step

and take ownership of our lives

so both are at play and it's not just one or the other

it's kind of a both and yeah

um but I think it's important to recognize that

so we talked about coasting

we started off talking about coasting

let's talk about the opposite

what does daring look like in everyday fatherhood

and what what is yeah

what does daring look like

yeah that's a

I appreciate that question

and that's changed for me

like over the course of my time as

as a father and growing as a man

I'm in my 40s now and what showing up looks like

what leaning in to fatherhood

to my own life looks like

um it is a dare because as we've said before

it is easy to avoid it's easy to coast

it's easy to settle um

it's easy to um check out

but to lean in

and to face ultimately like yourself

I think is the greatest thing a man can do yeah

you know when it comes to

you know fatherhood

which is what I talk a lot about

the men I work with

we get into some of

like the tactical aspects of being a dad

right conversations with kids

and rules and structures and this and that

but a lot of what we face is

is the man himself and uh

his own reaction his ability to move and um

with his own nervous system and

and reaction um

un unpacking his

the relationship that he's had with his dad

and with people it's

it's more about

us

becoming the kind of man that we know we're capable of

and modeling that for the

for our kids and so stepping into that

leaning into that is is to dare

it's to risk um

because it means facing

the parts of yourself that you would rather avoid

the parts of yourself that you don't want to to

to see that you don't want others to see um

but in reality other people are seeing them

because those things find their way out of us anyway

yeah that's right

um but yeah

so that's what I think that it

what it means to dare to dad

and I I think it's a uh

an important mandate cause I think there is

a mandate on men and fathers in the world today

um we do not live in the same world that our fathers

and our grandfathers lived in

um

you know

something I talk about often is

I had this conversation with someone last night

you know it wasn't until

you know the

the 60s

that men were even allowed into the delivery room

when it came to a child being born right

for a long time it was like

no men

you stay out in the lobby

and it was and women you're

you're allowed in here right

and in a single generation time

it's like

there's an expectation that when your child is born

that you're there

you're a full engaged birthing partner

you go to the classes

you show up in the room and set the tone all

and so there's a big shift that

that's happened

and there's a call to men to step forward

we're we're tired of the narrative of the

the disengaged disconnected dad

we're you know

with the the world has changed a lot for a

for a lot of reasons yeah

and so I think the the

the call to men is to lean in and to dare ourselves

to be better than maybe what has come before us

we can appreciate that and we can

you know uh

to a to a certain degree

but we can also say no

we wanna do better we wanna do more

we wanna be engaged in all aspects of life

and our own humanity

when it comes to being a man and being fathers

so

that's what it means for me to lean in and dare to dad

yeah I have this I have this friend who

he recognizes

this is just for observation

but it seems to me that he recognizes the fact that we

we always put off the

the thing that is kind of unpleasant

that you don't want to do

uh huh and so you can see him

when he encounters something like that

he just does it right away

uh huh and so

it's like

he recognizes that the reflex is to put this off

and then

and then just stick it over in a corner somewhere

and come back and address it when you're ready

but instead of doing that reflex

he's trained himself to do the opposite of that reflex

and I feel like that's what we need to do

the easy thing is to rest

the easy thing is to is to

is to coast

and we need to train ourselves to

when we feel like coasting

we need to leap into action instead

yeah we need to dare instead

yeah well

I mean the key

the key to anxiety is action right

so I think leaning when you're anxious

action is the remedy I say this to my

my 13 year old son all the time when it comes to like

homework right

oh my gosh

you know

I don't want to do this math assignment or whatever

it's like it will literally like he's brilliant

it will take you 10 minutes

and the amount of time that you've spent

worrying about it complaining about it

you could have been done by now right yeah

but why are you signing up for this anxiety right

but I do the same

I do the same exact thing when it comes to like little

small tasks I'm like

why is everything in my body

not wanting to do this thing

yeah but when

when we move through it that feeling of like

being done and accomplished feels really great um

and and there are times to rest right

there are times to do that

but going back to the beginning of our conversation

it's about like are we doing that consciously

are we being aware are we doing it with intention

and are we moving into those times with um intention

so yeah

for sure taking action is um

is a huge part of um

healing growing and moving through anxiety

I've read a

I've read a really good tactic for dealing with that

which is okay

don't commit to doing the whole thing

just commit to doing it for 2 minutes

and then once once you're in two minutes

then you can decide OK

after two minutes you can quit or you can keep going

and the vast majority of the time you'll keep going

yeah like we

we yeah

we paralyze ourselves sometimes because

because we can't do everything

we do nothing right

and so yeah

breaking it down can be really helpful

and that's where someone like a therapist or a coach

and someone outside of you

can help you and offer those kinds of perspectives

to help you

break down your goals into those kinds of tasks

like I coach Little League

we do the same thing when it comes to a a

a kid hitting right

yeah and baseball is a very complicated game right

and like hitting is complicated right

there's all sorts of things

there's your lower body your upper body

your hands your eyes

your head your shoulders

everything that you do to get into the right position

to hit the ball

if you start talking to a kid about every single thing

and he's thinking

about all the different parts of his body

it

right

but if you begin to break some things down

one thing at a time that's what a coach does

so in the same way a coach can help you

um begin to move the needle in areas of your life

by giving you some of that perspective that

it's hard to have on our own

cause we get overwhelmed so yeah you know

yeah I had a

I had a had an experience yesterday with my boy um

about that exact thing

and so he's decided that he wants to get into golf

and he's only 6 uh huh

and uh

but so we're we're leaning into it my

my wife's getting into golf

I hate golf I have hated golf my entire life

and I'm starting to get into it

and starting to really enjoy it also

and so

he and I decided to go to the driving range yesterday

and I um

I started off by like

trying to explain to him all of the mechanics and all

you know

here's how you gotta stand and here's how you swing

and here's how you hold the club

and here's how you do this and here's how you do that

and I started seeing him get frustrated

I was like this isn't fun for him

this like

he just wants to hit some balls

yeah and so I went you know what

here's how to avoid getting hurt

and here's how to avoid hurting other people yeah

go hit some balls

and here was the crazy thing about it

I would sit there and I uh

I had just bought this driver

and about 75% of the time

I would hit the ball

and it would just go off in some crazy

random direction it's very frustrating

I was getting all mad at myself

and I was expressing my anger there

but then about every once in a while

I would hit the ball

and it would go perfectly straight

and it would go 300 yards

just would sail forever and it felt so good

and what I did in that moment is

I acted too cool for school

I just like was like yeah

you know that's that I'm that's the kind of golfer I am

but that's not true

the kind of golfer I am is the guy who sprays balls

all over the place yeah

right meanwhile

my son was out there

and he was spraying balls all over the place

and he would spray a ball and put another one down

and he would hit it

and spray a ball and then put another one down

and then he would hit one

and it would go 10 feet in the air and would

you know it land like 20 yards out there

and he's having the time of his life

he's having the time of his life right

he was having the time of his life yeah

and he's out there doing that

and he had way more fun

going to the driving range than I did

because he was having the time of his life

the 10% of the time that he hit the ball perfectly

uh huh and I was miserable that I was just miserable

the 90% of the time that I was hitting it poorly

and I was like there's a lesson here yeah

I've gotta do something

I've gotta do something about that

and I'm not quite sure what it is

I'm interested in your feedback about that

you know

we were talking a little bit before this show started

about

like the vulnerability of joy

yeah and

that at some point in our lives

joy becomes this thing that we hide

yeah as men

yeah and that we are afraid to express

um

and I I

I think it's because you know when

when if you were to sit in a

a great meditation is to just connect with um

a moment of joy that you had as a child

right and and

and hopefully you had one

I know not everyone's lives are the same

but when I think back to my childhood

and joyful moments it is

it is there's a depth there and a

something very very deep within me and

where we do need to grow up and mature and

and we initiate from boyhood to manhood

what we often do though

is completely cut off sometimes this

ability to just have joy yeah

and we encounter it with our children

and they have a way of reminding us

about that joy

and sometimes that reminder can be frustrating for us

we go how

like

we we all of a sudden see ourselves

we see ourselves in that moment of like

why am I why am I not having a good time right now

and he's having the time of his life

that's frustrating right because

because we have you know

in that moment lost connection with

with the joy of just of being and

and not not and have not

not performing yeah

not having to produce something

you know right

and um

it's an incredible thing and I think that's the

I think that's a

one of the magic pieces of fatherhood and

and being around kids

is this reminder of what it means to be like

a kid and to have joy um

and that takes conscious effort

you know to

to sit with our kids and to

to play games to

you know

just jump in I

I think that's why I love uh

with my kids

um like watching some of these

like old movies or getting into like

things like you know

Star Wars or like Marvel stuff

because when I step into that world with them

I get to step back into being a kid again for a bit

and just love it to love it yeah

there's no purpose for me or anything like that

other than just joy yeah

um and it's something that I think I would

I think we as

as men as fathers need to uh

cultivate a sense of being able to

you know

express our joy

that's so true

joy isn't cool

joy isn't cool or wasn't cool when I was growing up and

what a gift that we can give to our sons

yeah

to free them of that yeah

mindset yup

and we can do that I can yup

I can I can do that

I can cultivate that and

you know when we're at the driving range

I kind of suppressed it a little bit in him I

I I didn't want him to make so much noise

I didn't want him to disturb other people

you know yeah

I don't know man

there's something to that I

I don't want to disturb other people but

but by the same token

I don't know I need him to feel the joy too and and

and frankly I need to be learning from him

and I need to be experiencing the joy

rather than hitting that perfect ball

and being too cool for school

I should feel the joy and not only that

I should be helping other people feel joy

what would how would it

how would I feel if I hit that perfect shot

and I'm looking at it and I'm

even though I'm being too cool for school

and somebody behind me said man

that was an amazing shot

yeah that would make my week

yeah for sure

and yet I've never done that

yeah I wouldn't think of doing that

yeah why

uh huh why can't I cultivate that in other people

and other men especially

well and

you know that's

yeah I have a

I have a good I have a

one of my my good buddies was in Nashville

and on a number of occasions

I I have felt like I've

I've had experiences in life that are bringing me joy

and I've just keeping it in

and I I can

I can feel it like in my chest yeah

yeah and he's

he's one of the men in my life that just

you know I can

I can just completely be myself

and I'll calm like Ben

I need to just radiate with you for a bit

can you just

could you hold my excitement and could you just like

can we just and like

and I'll just call and I'll gush on something

yeah

and it's so important right

because I I

we have spaces like that as men that

that are like culturally appropriate

like we're talking about sports

the sports field is one of those things yeah

when when

when we score touchdown and we spike it in the end zone

and we do we do the dance

and there there are those moments that are kind of

culturally acceptable when it comes to joy

but what about other things

what about the like

what about the business idea that you have

what about the what about the joy of

of watching your kid do something right

what about a relationship and

and maybe someone that you're falling in love with

what about something that you're

what about you something that you're you're

you're learning in school or you're growing and

and you're excited about

I think sometimes those areas for men we

we tend to like oh

I don't wanna get too excited about that

I don't wanna share that like oh man

like cause maybe when we were a kid

we shared excitement about something

we got really excited someone's like

oh man

you're gay or whatever and so

we have these really dumb

like cultural things around being joyful that limit our

um

uh

we limit ourselves from being seen

yeah right

and so uh

cultivating Joy Man that's

that's a yeah

and it I mean just think about

just think about what you would do if your son were

some had some success

hit a home run right

yeah and was feeling joyful about it

was bouncing up and down everyone was

was hugging him and stuff like that

and someone came and stole that joy from him

yeah somehow like yeah

said

said something that made him feel bad about it or say

oh well

you know if you were really good

you would have hit it over the center fence

instead of the right field fence

or some crazy thing like that right yeah

how would you feel about that person

right what would you do as a protective instinct

as a father what would you do to somebody

who stole that moment from your son

and yet you and I steal those moments from ourselves

constantly yeah

it's sick yeah

yeah and so

we need to we need to be able to cultivate that

and you know what that's part of being courageous

that's part of daring yeah

in the way that you describe it

uh huh yeah absolutely

uh I think being able to

as men experience the full spectrum of like emotions

right versus often

what have been the culturally acceptable norms for men

you know to experience to

to be angry and to be joyful

but only in certain areas yeah

you know to allow ourselves

the full breadth of the human experience

to be seen and known as humans first right

and

and I think that is an invitation for men right now is

um where I think sometimes there's a

a message out there that men are somehow being

uh

stripped of

some of these traditional roles that they play yeah

I actually see what we're experiencing right now

is an opportunity for men to both be those things

and so much more to be fully human

and to experience the wide range of the human like

experience on this planet

to tap into all parts of ourselves

our our

our our joy

our anger our grief

our pain our hopes

our fears like all of these things

and in a in a really

really powerful way and so yeah

I'm all these things to lean into those areas

maybe

that we haven't always been comfortable leaning into is

is where the daring bit comes in yeah

what are some of the the

the the tactical things that

that men can do to help retrain themselves

to have a bias towards action

or to to

to have to reflectively

or to reflectively dare instead of coast

uh huh

yeah I'm gonna

I'll use the word that I I don't love this word

cause I have sometimes historical baggage here

but accountability

it's a big part that's where other

being in a group or space with other men

is where it's at yeah

it is where it is at Sean

so you know

to be around other men who are helping push you forward

not in in a in a in a loving way

men who are for you

who want your success where you can show up right

and that is that that's huge piece

like I said your tribe

yeah and isolation is the man killer guys

and so if if you're listening to this

find a group it doesn't have to be anything

it could be small if you don't have one

start one like be around other men who inspire you

right I

I say this to my 13 year old

you are an average of the five people

you hang out with the most yeah

so be around some other men

there's a lot of great communities

you know on even even if it's virtual start somewhere

I mean it's best in person

but even online be around some other guys

and get some accountability in your life

that's No. 1 um

you know

No. 2 is you being able to be honest with yourself

even those spaces of showing up in a men's group

working with a coach

working with a therapist

is only as good as you are honest

so being taking inventory

there's some great questions you can ask

if you're feeling like you're stuck

or feeling like you're coasting

one of those questions is

what am I avoiding in my life

so if you're a journaler or

or anything like that

these are some great like meditations

what am I avoiding in my life

what am I pretending isn't heavy but really is

right and um

what is one thing I can do today

to begin to move the needle

what's one thing I can do

you know um

I mean I think

I think if we all woke up every morning

and we asked ourselves those three questions

yep exactly

just imagine how powerful you'd be in a month

in a year in five years

yep and you just ask yourself those three questions

every day that's it absolutely

wake up in the morning

ask yourself those three questions

yeah absolutely um

I think another another one could be

you know what

what have I not

where am I not telling the truth

is another is another great question

where am I um

where am I lying to others and myself

I think that you know

I one of the things that I feel has come out of our

kind of hyper online culture these days is that we've

we're losing the ability

to encounter criticism in a healthy way

oh yeah

it it's almost like

anybody who criticizes you is your enemy in every way

and we have to we have to fight that yeah

and that creates a feedback loop where okay

if you're gonna react violently towards me

if I give you criticism then I just won't do it

it actually costs me to give you constructive feedback

uh huh and if you don't accept it well

well then I won't give it to you right

and then you end up in a situation where literally

nobody is willing to show you your ass

uh huh

and I got news for you your ass is hanging out yeah

nobody can read the label from inside the bottle

you need people to tell you what it says yeah

and if you can't accept that with Grace

it is a problem for you you're gonna look around

and you're gonna be at rock bottom

and there will be nobody there for you

because you've driven them all away yeah

there's something really

really powerful about a man who can stand

and listen to feedback

and hold that with

um

patience and perspective and understanding

it doesn't mean that even if the feedback is is off

right it might be wrong then yeah okay

but how many but

and especially I would say in in relationships right

you're in a relationship with someone

and someone has some feedback yeah

that is that is a powerful man

that's a very attractive man to I think

to women and partners yeah

is a man who can hear feedback

listen to it and

and get curious oh gosh

we can probably do a whole episode on the the

the power of curiosity in

in a man and getting curious and staying curious

um but that's

that's that's a really

really powerful thing to talk about is

is is

is getting feedback and standing in it

listening to it adjusting where you need to huge

mm hmm yeah

and and I'll tell you

one of the as as a father

sometimes the

the harshest feedback we can get is from our

from our kids so yeah

they who can be really bluntly honest and

and even

even the feedback that they don't say but that you

you begin to notice in their lives

yeah and the feedback that you're getting as a parent

um can be really

really hard and we can be hard on ourselves

so there's a lot of different ways we can

receive feedback as men

but to stand in it to hold it

to get curious about it

is a really powerful skill to develop

I remember this episode that happened to me with my boy

he was

he was about 3

and he had just recently been potty trained

and he and I were going I like to fly gliders

and we were going to the glider port

and uh

he used to love to go with me

and but there

aren't any good bathrooms in the glider club

in the glider port and so we stopped for breakfast and

uh and so at the restaurant I wanted to make I

I wanted him to poop

before we left the restaurant to go to the glider port

because we were gonna be at the glider port for

a while and I didn't want to run the risk

that he had an accident

and so I had a lot of pent up frustration about like

making sure that he poops

so we went in the bathroom

and he didn't want to sit there

and he didn't want to poop

and he didn't feel like he had to

and I knew he had to

he just eaten like I knew he was like

if he just sat there for a couple minutes we

it would come out and it would be fine

and I ended up getting really upset

and I started yelling at him

I was so frustrated it was all pent up

and I probably had some other stuff going on

and he says he's like yelling back at me and he says

I'm scared and I'm screaming in his face

I'm like what are you scared about

and he goes I'm scared of you

and

this is one of the most shameful things

I've ever experienced in my entire life

and I realized

yeah

he's scared of me right now about going to the bathroom

and

I just sat with that for a second and I

I said I'm so sorry man

I am so sorry

and I said let's

you know what

let's just go we're okay

it'll be fine and if we need to stop

we'll stop and if we need to go to the bathroom

at the Glider Club

we'll go to the bathroom at the Glider Club

it'll be OK and I'm really

really sorry but man

I mean I will remember that on my deathbed

hmm

as one of the biggest like if I could take that back

and you know what he probably doesn't even remember it

man thanks for sharing that story

that's a vulnerable share and I'm

I'm I've had those moments

and I'm sure probably I better what

listening has had those moments

yeah um

and yeah I

I understand like the feeling

I think the the important piece of that is

no none of us are gonna be perfect

we're all gonna have these moments of um

where we we messed up where we allow our whatever is

whatever was happening in your world in that moment

whatever was driving your agenda

to have him do that right then and there right

I mean

we could probably explore like what else is going on in

in your world and in your

your at that moment right

but I think the important piece

and the takeaway that I would say here is

is the repair

yeah right

um

and the importance of repairing

um in

in parenting and in our relationships with our kids

is that often that doesn't happen and so

being able to follow up

and to be able to work through that

to apologize you know

um

and to learn and to grow that your kid will remember

yeah is yeah

maybe the moment it was scary yeah

but he's also going to remember how you sought to

learn and grow

and apologize and admit when you're wrong

yeah and to self correct that is equally as important

yeah and as I'm thinking back on it now I

you know I

I um

uh I just recently had a conversation with a guy named

Ryan North

and he said in their family

they have they

they have a

a specific formula that they use for apologies

and um

and and part of it is you

first of all you

you you

you say I'm sorry

and you say the specific thing that you're sorry for

like I'm sorry I yelled at you and made you feel scared

mm hmm

and you ask for forgiveness

and I wish I done that I mean

like I would feel better now had I leveraged that

uh huh in that moment

and even if he wasn't ready to forgive me

you know in time he will be and cause it

that's true I mean

sometimes that maybe the moment they're

they're not there yet we're not there yet

you know and so

and that's yeah

that's okay then you know

well let's check back in

in a couple hours like

let's see where we are and yeah

it was man but yeah

and but I'm glad he gave me the feedback right

I mean they

going back to yeah

you're right

that was direct feedback sometimes

and we do

I'm glad he told me and I'm glad he felt like he could

in spite of the fact that I was in his face

I was screaming at him

I'm glad that he felt like he could say

I'm scared and that's not the appropriate way to be

like you're not being the dad you wanna be

it's basically what he's telling me

yeah and I mean

it hit me right between the eyes and I'm really

really glad he did that yeah

and we yeah

that's a really really powerful story to describe

when we're constantly getting that yeah

and I I again

going back to the the

the power of being a man who can receive feedback

also the power of a man who seeks it out right

the power man who who constantly wants to um

grow and develop

I think that's a powerful tool in a relationship

I'll ask my kids sometimes like hey

you know and when the moment is right

you know how can daddy

is there

is there a way that daddy can do better with you

or how how

what what would you change you

know where where

where are you maybe having a hard time with dad

you know what can I

what can I do to um

to help you

you know better

I try to keep the questions really simple with kids

but it's also important tool in relationships

hey

where where am

where am I not seeing you

hey where where

where can I um

how can I be a a

a better service to this relationship

this partnership this love

whatever it is it's a really powerful thing to do

yeah yeah

I thanks for sharing that story man

that's a that's a

that's a that's a great and a powerful picture of

of getting feedback in the moment

and the way that our kids reflect back to us

in a really powerful way thanks

that's that's

that's kind of you to say yeah

I mean fatherhood

I think it can why I'm in this work and doing this

fatherhood can be one of the greatest containers

for our formation as human beings

as men and um

it's really powerful yeah

yeah I yeah

I I definitely feel that way

what now how do you think we can help cultivate

this reflex for daring

in our sons

hmm

um

resiliency you know

being teaching kids to be um

resilient to um

believe in themselves

and their ability to do difficult and hard things

um it's sometimes easy to want

to just go out and clear the path before them

but to allow them to struggle um

I have a phrase that I use with people with kids is

is to don't steal the struggle

the struggle is a gift

yeah um

and so seeing our kids and

and seeing our kids struggle

can be an incredibly difficult thing yeah

um

but to allow that is to help them cultivate into build

build resilience so that can be on the sports field

that can be in the classroom yeah

that can be relationally um

when my kids are like fighting and arguing

you know

how much do I allow them to struggle through that

and to build and repair on their own

versus how quickly I step in

uh huh um

yeah it's

it's easy to do that I think

I'm gonna make a statement that

I know is kind of a general one

but I think it it is

mostly holds true that I think dads do

maybe this a little bit better than moms

um is to allow like the

the kids to take risks right

and to get out there and and to develop some resilience

but I think

it's something that we can continue to be mindful of

so when it comes to daring and leaning in

um also to allow us our

our our kids to

to feel right um

in in

in your bathroom moment

to welcome your son's fear and distress

and to not shame him for it and to experience like

that moment is is a

is a powerful thing and um

so I think those are some things that we can do to

to to build a sense of

of daring and leaning in with our kids and

and maybe the most important thing

after saying all that is modeling it

like that's for sure

yeah it is

I always start with modeling

my kids have seen me through

some really difficult things

you know I'm

I'm I'm divorced

I went through a divorce

and my kids had a front seat to my grief

and saw me have evenings where I

I would I would break down and saw me at

at have seen me at some of the lowest points of my life

they've also seen dad get back up on his feet right

they've also seen dad heal and grow and all of that

and modeling a resiliency

modeling what it means to lean in

and to pick yourself back up and to move forward is um

probably

the most powerful thing that we can give to our kids

yeah you talk about the

the the way our kids coach us a little bit

I uh

I had another one of those situations with the boy

one of the ways that I deal with difficult things is

with humor I've always been something that we

you know we joke about is gallows humor or whatever and

um and so when my son was upset and he would cry

I would try to make him laugh

and one day he says to me

he goes stop it dad

he's trying he's laughing

he's trying not to laugh he's trying to cry

uh huh he goes

stop it stop it

and I go what

and he goes just let me feel what I feel

I was like wow man

there's a four year old he's schooling me

and he was so right and

and my wife called me out on it as

as well after that I was like

you know what you're

you're right boy

you are 100% right yep

about that yeah

yeah that's

I mean that's a powerful thing to allow the kids to

um you know

we have a saying in our house

that feelings aren't right

feelings aren't wrong feelings are feelings

and all feelings are you know

there's a classic line you know

parenting all feelings are acceptable

all behaviors are not but when it comes to feelings is

is allowing all of that in um

to model it to um

yeah and what

and kids notice our reaction to their emotions

and what it and

and get a real deep sense of what is acceptable

and what is not

and when we think back to our own experience as kids

we can probably tap into

feelings that were more welcome than others

and it's probably in direct correlation

with how we experience those today

as adults and so all that is

is definitely stuff to be mindful of as

as we navigate with our kids

yeah I

I feel like the way that I grew up

it was

it was all about suppressing your feelings and about

you know soldiering through and all of that

and you know

I mean

that's not the worst advice in the world

I guess but it's really maladaptive

especially in our modern world it

you can be so much more powerful um

if you if you let yourself feel that

and you can you can

it's like the metaphor I like to use is

who's the stronger boxer

the guy who has an impenetrable defense that

you know you can't get a punch in

or the guy who doesn't need to have a defense

because you can just whale away as hard as you want

and it doesn't even affect him

yeah you know it's

it's interesting me there's a lot of

um trips about men these days

and suppressing emotions and thinking

you know hearing exactly what you just said

and I think when we we dig under the surface

there's a lot of really

there's a lot of reasons why that is right and

and the history of men and

and what men have been called to do within

in society um

and the expectation of

of men to be kind of the protectors right

um men

historically

have been the ones that go to war and do some of the

the toughest jobs and we expect right

you know

who's gonna run into the burning building and save like

the women and children right

I mean these are

these are just kind of ideas that are out there

it's like the men yeah and so

with that expectation culturally and historically

in our genetic makeup and in our

in our in our

in our bodies is this sense that

you know what

I might have to make a decision with my body

that's gonna require me to actually shut off

what I'm feeling about in the moment

mm hmm so that valve

right to turn off and on what we're feeling

has to sometimes happen really quick yeah

and

that is not giving men an out for not experiencing like

the full breadth of who they are

cause I actually agree with you

that I think it actually does cultivate a strength

but I think understanding the reason why men do that

and why

what's in our bodies and in our psychology to do is

is an important like

place to understand at the ground level

well and it's a virtue

being able to turn that valve is a virtue

yeah but we

we want that we want that from men in

in certain we

we want them to be these anchors

these rocks right

it's part of you know yeah

part of masculinity is being able to control that valve

but part of masculinity is also

having it be in the appropriate position yeah

yeah hundred percent yes yeah

so I think yeah

just understanding that but yeah

um I agree that vulnerability um

and emotion like when it comes to mental health

and mental health is something we hear a lot about

mental health what I

I take that to mean

and maybe this is helpful for guys is mental resilience

mental toughness

mental stamina yeah right

maybe those words might be help more helpful for

for men is to think about like hey

how mentally flexible are you so that in your mind

in kind of your thing you

you are able to adapt and bend and move

and that's less breakable

yeah right

so yeah

yeah I'm with you yeah I'm with you 100%

well I always love to uh

finish these conversations

by putting people on the spot

uh huh

so if you could

leave people listening with one operating principle

or one guiding principle for daring fatherhood

what would it be

I would say

leaving with one principle

maybe the most important thing when it comes to

fatherhood masculinity

is daring

to take a really honest look at your own life

yeah and leaning into the areas that you're avoiding

um I say this as someone who did that for a really

really long time

and what we hide in the basement of our lives

finds a way out yeah

and often it's doing it when we're not even noticing

and so to

uh face what Carl Jung

the famous psychologist talks about our shadow selves

and be able to face the things in our lives

that are tough

that are scary is the bravest thing you can do as a man

as a father and you

and you your family

your community

will benefit from it and will thrive because of it

I think that is

that is an excellent operating principle

Ryan thank you so much for joining us and

and sharing your wisdom I really

really appreciate it and

and to everybody listening

to every parent listening

let's

let's do our best to just dare a little bit more and

and not just for ourselves

but for our boys and for our children

and for our spouses and partners and uh and

and just everybody who's trying to watch us become men

worth following yeah

Ryan is the founder of the daring to dad

coaching program

you can learn more about what he's up to

with the links in the show notes

Ryan thanks again for joining us

my pleasure Shawn

thanks so much this has been raising men

I'm Shawn Dawson and you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino