as you said earlier

why wouldn't they go into these spaces if that's

if that's what they're getting

if this is the only safe place

neither one of us are saying that

we want them to stay in spaces

where they're getting misogynistic

misogynistic messaging

or messaging that is detrimental in any way

neither one of us are are

are floating that idea for a second

but I think we're both

we both understand something more nuanced

which is that boys are going there

sometimes for really valid reasons

of deeper needs that they have

that are not being met anywhere else

welcome back today on Raising Men

we're joined by Andrew Rainer

he's a teaching professor

a cultural critic and he's one of the leading voices

examining the emotional lives of boys today

uh he's a teacher professor at Towson University

he's the author of Better Boys

Better Men

The New Masculinity that creates greater courage

and emotional resiliency

and the upcoming book boys reconnected

the growing epidemic of alienation and how to stop it

he's written extensively about masculinity

and boys issues and men's issues

particularly mental health

he's written extensively for the New York Times

Washington Post Boston Globe

as well as for the NZ Herald and LA Repubblica

among other publications Andrew welcome to raising men

thanks John

it's really great to be here

it's great to meet you

I'm so excited to have this talk with you

let me get you just started by saying

like you've said

that boys are falling through the cracks these days

and I could not agree more with this

it's part of the founding uh

hypothesis of this entire project for me

what makes you say that

and why is it happening right now

yeah I mean

those are two great questions to start off with

um

it it definitely

it definitely is happening now

um you know

there are basically two schools of thought

really kind of predominating in the

in the in the public conversation

one of them is basically that um

boys are failing

you know the

the the extreme of that

that boys are really failing

the other one is that um

boys are doing fine um

you know they're

they're they're they

they they're damaged goods

but they're doing just fine thanks

and we need to stop um

saying that they're that boys

that boys we need to put the spotlight on boys

cause it really doesn't belong on them

it belongs somewhere else

that's a whole another conversation

um I

I tend to fall somewhere

that's about 2/3 over to the failure side

um ever since I

ever since I finished my last book

the thing that I that really kind of tipped me off

Shawn was that

at the very end of the research for my last book

I started talking to older boys and young men

and one of the things I kept hearing was

just this through line

was that they were struggling with their mental health

that was not at all

something that we were talking about at all

as a culture the other thing that

that I started hearing was that

this idea of independence

was a much bigger problem for them

they didn't really call it

you know independence but

but the ways that they were really wearing

this idea of independence

were breaking them down

because they had this extreme notion

that they had to do everything on their own

or they were falling short the

this this transcended race

it transcended sexuality um

because every young man that I spoke to then

and since then has really spoken to to

to a lot of these same themes

and then

the other thing I started realizing when I started um

really putting together a proposal for the book

I'm working on now is that

is that in the classroom

and this really starts pretty much at about um

anywhere from kindergarten to really

you know maybe 2nd or 3rd grade

and then it goes all the way through high school

and actually if

if if young men go on to college

it happens there too where they

they're completely falling through the cracks

in the educational system

and the the conversation um

when I was working on my first book

and really since then has very much been oh

you know well it's

it's a problem with toxic masculinity

you know that's the problem

the problem is toxic masculinity

the way they're being taught to be men

and to some extent I

I really kind of spoke to this in my first book as well

it's that

the script we've been handing boys has been flawed

and the ways as a result

that they're engaging with education um

because of this script is that it really

it really undermines their ability to want

to really learn and there is some truth to that

there absolutely is some truth to that

but it also goes deeper than that

yeah and

and and boys

are falling through the cracks

on every metric of education

um and again it

you know it starts

the latest it typically starts is

is early elementary school

but it goes all the way through high school

and we're seeing it in college too

because what we're seeing in colleges

we all know that um

young men are far less likely

to want to attend college today

and there's reasons for that

which we could get into later

but the other thing is that when they're there

they're falling through the cracks

you know they are

they're not attending classes

nearly as much as their female peers

they're not getting the grades

that their female peers are getting

here's a really great example

um I came across a really telling study

which was that

the one area that a lot of educators say that boys

and young men are still excelling in

are the stem classes right

the science the math

the engineering

that's not the case

because at the college level in America

the girls and young women

proportionally that are in those majors

are doing better grade wise than their male peers

proportionally wow

and to me that

that alone

is a great example of what we're talking about

and it's not that you know

in no way does this take away from the successes

the fantastic successes of girls and young women

because they deserve all credit for that

but what what

what it does to me is it says that there is a problem

it's the

that the boys and the young men aren't keeping pace

and and this is also happening

by the way we're seeing these upward ticks

at the graduate school level

as well law schools

medical schools um

and other graduate programs

we're seeing increasingly

less and less males going on to there

as well and so

you know the reason I bring up education

Sean as such an important place is because

I mean that's the job

right of

of all kids regardless of gender

that's their job when they're young

that's the place where we have to look to see

are they thriving or are they struggling

and for boys it's the latter

but it's happening for them

with mental health as I mentioned a few moments ago

um

boys and young men are far more anxious and depressed

than we've really been LED to believe

and I've I've been finding this out for

for years in the second book that I'm working on

with the research and a big part of that is because

the metrics we've been using

to gauge anxiety and especially depression in males

is different

than what they really need to accurately assess

whether or not they're depressed

for instance

and so um

a lot probably the

the area of mental health

that boys and young men are struggling with

the most is anxiety

but when we talk about depression

there still is this this

this belief and you can find this if you just Google it

you know this notion of

that

the proportion of females to males who are depressed

is the same as anxiety it's like 2 to 1

or it with anxiety might even be a little bit higher

but when you use metrics that better gauge

more accurately

depression and how it manifests in males

which typically is different than in females

the that gap narrows dramatically

and in some studies

is actually shown that males proportionally can

when the when the metrics are used that are accurate

can actually be a little bit more depressed

than a lot of females

and that doesn't surprise me because when

all we have to do is look at the suicide rates

oh my gosh yeah right

I mean that's a whole other conversation

but that speaks volumes right there

in terms of how it can translate into suicide rates

addiction rates yeah

um

and just so just so

just for the people who are listening

or not as aware of this as you and I are

what what

what are the suicide rates in

in men compared to women right

the suicide rates on average are 3 to 1 male to female

yeah and they go up

they go up even higher in

in in certain age

in certain age brackets yeah

so for instance um

in in uh

older boys and young men you know

when you're talking about uh I

think it's a 15 to 15 to 24 um

it's 3 to 1 males are

males are that much more likely to commit suicide

and a lot of women will say well

but yeah

but but

you know more

you know there

there are a lot more young women who unfortunately are

are attempting suicide absolutely

and and

and that's a huge problem

but but when you take that a step further

and you look at the ability to take your own life and

and to see it through all the way

that's something that that

that's a whole that's a whole different beast entirely

that you have to look at

yeah and when you get

you know and

and that gets even higher

it gets even a little bit higher for men

when they reach middle age

yeah that doesn't

that doesn't surprise me at all

and it's terrifying and

you know so much of the rhetoric around this

and so much of what you hear in the online discourse

and all of that

it

it sets the entire discussion up as this win

lose situation

and and you just you

you just enumerated it that you

is it oh

but you know

the the girls are struggling in this other way

or whatever it is or this is

it's almost like the unconscious argument is that

this cost to our young men is worth it

because the young women

who really haven't had the kinds of opportunities that

men have historically in our culture and all of that

which is true um

they they're

they're getting better and and

and so it's worth this cost

and that's not the case and

and it's almost not the case in

in in most human endeavors

it's hardly ever a win lose thing

there is usually a win win construct

and the fact is that if young men aren't thriving

then

young women aren't gonna thrive as much as they could

either and it's all this in

in our society

is not gonna thrive the way that we need it to

and so this

part of the entire nature of the problem here

is that we are culturally inclined

to gauge these things in this win lose mentality

and we have to

we have to cure people of that affliction

it is not a win lose thing

it is a win win thing

there is no reason our young men can

can can thrive and our young women can thrive

and when we do as a culture and as a society

we thrive absolutely

the thing that I

the thing that I've been saying for years

Sean is

you know it's a zero sum equation

which is exactly what you're talking about

and the way that I've always phrased it is that

you know the way that

it's the way that we're talking about

um boys and girls

young men young women

it's it's very much um

this either or proposition

that if if girls right

if that

if boys are struggling

then that's gonna take away the spotlight from girls

and what they need um

and they are

and they are doing so much better in so many ways

not always of course

because we know about mental health is as one big area

obviously and we

we can't get away from that

but across the board

there is a greater lack of resilience in boys

than there is in girls but it's

I always say you know

when you look at it and you say

it's an either or proposition

one has to rise at the expense of the other

then as you said that's gonna have ripple effects

that affect us all across the board culturally not

not just in terms of gender

it's gotta be a both and

because that's really what it is

you know

what we're talking about here is a both and proposition

that you know that

that it's it's

that it's it's

we're all you know

inextricably entwined and

and really you know

this really speaks of course

to a much larger conversation about

about who we are as a culture

because we very much are at that kind of

zero sum equation of that one has to

one has to excel at the expense of the other

there was a young man I interviewed who's 15

Sean 15

who said to me you know

I sit there in class and and you

know I hear all these

you know

these young women talking about all the problems of

of boys and men and how they're constantly

so many of the problems in our culture is

is all because of boys and men

and he said I

you know I sit there and I just think

you know how helpful is it to say that one group

in this case girls has to

has to advance at the expense of boys and men right

and he sums it up so beautifully

kind of where we are right now in the conversation

so talk to me about

talk to me about your new book about alienation

what what

what's the nature of that

how does it come about

sure yeah

well you know

so many of the factors that I talk about in the book um

in terms of alienation

really ultimately lead to a decrease in resilience

yeah but in terms of the alienation

you know what we're talking about

first and foremost is that it's true absolutely

you know

that boys and young men are falling through the cracks

in the educate in many ways in the education system

and it's especially true I

I really think in a lot of public schools

um and that's a much bigger conversation

because one of the things I find

when I do work with boys schools

for instance is that you don't see that problem there

right part of it

of course is the

socioeconomics right

you've got parents

who can afford to send their boys to these schools

sure and they're getting the kind of

support systems that they need right

um but when you also talk with boys in coed

private schools

um there is a little bit more of a disconnect than

than boys are experiencing in all boys schools

and when you get to the public schools

it's even more so so right off the bat

one of the things that you're getting in terms of boys

is a feeling that um

because when there are conversations

in a lot of schools

there often are very kind of covert and overt messaging

that as that young 15 year old male said

that they get in the classroom

that often happens in passing

you know these passing comments about toxic masculinity

these comments about um

uh you know that

that all boys and young men are predators

which is a whole not

which really is a kind of prevailing message

more and more

but there's lots of messaging that boys get in schools

that really make them feel that

this is not a place where I really

really feel that I I can really

I can and should extend myself

because what happens with boys

and this is not as true with girls

and research shows this is that

and this

a lot of times with boys when they start to struggle

they pull away

they pull away and then they

basically just kind of

they fall through the cracks or they implode

this is such an interesting point because they are I

I think culturally we send the message to boys

as you mentioned before we send the message to boys

that they are

responsible for solving their own problems

and to look for community is to look

is to be weak and to and to uh

express inability or difficulty to be vulnerable

really is a sign of weakness as well

and so of course they're gonna turn inward right

and the message to girls is no

no no

you have your community

you're here for you kind of thing and

and that second thing though

you have a community

we're here for you message is a way

more powerful way to live your life

oh it's

it's it's the way it is

I italicize it is the way to live your life

and you're exactly right Sean

what happens and there was a great small sample study

there were two of them

that both touched on similar dynamics

that you're talking about

one of them was that when the

when the freshman and early sophomore

young males were struggling

they would they would

they would pull back they'd stop going to classes

they'd stop getting in assignments

and what happened is that

when their professors or administrators would say

would reach out to them and say hey

you know we've got to get you back on track

um and

and these are some things that you can do

they wouldn't do them and another study found that

a big part of

the reason for that was

exactly what you're speaking to

is that they did not have a

what I call a safety net

they did not have a community safety net

that they would turn to

I'm not even talking about a counselor

a therapist I'm talking about going to other friends

and getting some of the strokes that they need to feel

you can do this and I

and I and

and if you need me to check in with you

to make sure that you're going to class

you're doing OK I'll do that

yeah and the study showed that

when girls

and young women were also academically struggling

they would get help from their professors

they would do what they needed to do to stay on track

and to add to that they had that safety net

they were so good as you said

at creating and maintaining these safety nets

and the big secret which clearly you understand as well

which shouldn't be a secret

is that when we have communities

when we have these safety nets

we thrive yeah

it doesn't matter what you're talking about

you can be talking about sports as well

it's the same thing

when we have these safety nets of community

of people

where we can go and give the support and receive it

we thrive and

that is a telltale aspect of resilience

and so when we talk about alienation Sean

that's one of the big areas

and so what happens is that

you know a lot of boys and young men

another area of their lives that they struggle with

in this day and age and this is a complex one

is dating you know

if they're heterosexual true

um because a lot of boys and young men

and I've heard this for a couple years now

really have a lot of questions

you know in the post me too era

of what's safe and what's not safe

and a lot of confusion right

and they don't have places they can talk about this

right

they don't have anybody that's willing to talk about

with them

and the times that there have been conversations

they often have felt that they've been shut down

that they should know the answers

to a lot of these questions which

oh

there are people that are perfectly

willing to have the conversation

with them people like Andrew Tate

that's exactly right right

the last people we want to be having conversations with

that's exactly right

and the message they're going to get is

women are trying to put you down

women are trying to control you

women are women are evil

women are you know

I mean that's not the message that that's

that's not that's a grift

by the way it's not a message that

that's not a good message

it's not a message

that you want to be living your life by

it's it's not at all and and and they've got you know

and it's something that a lot of one of the things I

I did this survey what's on our minds

and and in the survey that that I gave to

to older high school and young college men

one of the things I you know

I asked them at the end was to say um

you know some kind of

something you wish

you would hear from the adults in your lives

that are close to you and quite a few of them said

that they wish the people would tell them

that they're gonna find love

that that that that they will find that they're okay

they're enough as they are

to be a partner with somebody

now you know

that to me really kind of stopped me dead on my tracks

yeah

because that's the kind of thing that a lot of boys

and young men absolutely care about

and you know there was a study from Pew

which found that

that the majority of respondents who were um

high school juniors or seniors of boys

I think it was like in the 70s or

or 80% did

have this notion of wanting to be married

when they were older and that number for the

that number for the young women

you know was was down in in the was under

50% well under 50% I think it was 37% wow

so you know

and and part of the problem with that is that

the messaging we still have

around heterosexual relationships

is that they don't serve girls and women

and that that's all you know

that that's an important reason why

they should feel empowered

and not feel this pressure to have to do that

of course we don't want anybody to feel pressured

let alone women

to feel that they have to be in relationships sure

but that's not always the message that they're getting

a lot of the message they're getting is that

they shouldn't be getting into relationships

because they they are they are problematic

there's too much drama with guys

and they're gonna be the ones who end up losing

in this equation and and you know

that's not a the kind of conversation

that a lot of people wanna have

and I completely understand that

but when you talk to boys and young men

a lot of them are very self aware

they're very thoughtful they're very caring

these are not the kind of guys

who want to get into relationships

and want to be you know

want to be millstones around any girl

young woman's neck they want to be partners and they

they're very capable of of saying as much

so I think that there's I think that there is a

a kind of subtext to what's going on in this kind of

chasm that's created between the need to have

intimate relationships and I think that some of the

some of the messaging that's out there

really overlooks

the changing dynamics that are happening

for boys and young men who are very happy to level up

and wanna be in relationships

and wanna be good partners

but a lot of them don't feel that

they're getting that chance

and that's that by the way

is a trend that's happening for a lot of older men too

it's not just for for younger boys and young men

you know I

I wanna say something provocative here

and I wanna get your your feedback on it and

and that is that I can imagine that the

the women's outlook on that is rational

in the sense that they look around and they

I could imagine that

they see a shortage of suitable mates

absolutely for whatever reason

yeah and like that's because I

I mean

I believe that we're undergoing a masculinity crisis

right now that

that that men are forgetting how to be men

and um

and it's been going on long enough so that

you know a lot of young men these days they're

they're not they're really just boys in man costumes

and and so

you know if I'm a 28 year old woman right now

looking around at the various possibilities

I don't need a husband to to

to I mean

I might want one I might because

because I'd like a mate also

but you know frankly

that's not something I really need all that much to get

what I need out of life absolutely

maybe it was in the 50s but it's not today

and so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sign up for that

and I think that there are a bunch of 28 year old boys

that are sitting around being like man I

I really wanna be that for that person

but I don't know how and so we've got this

we've got this real structural problem around

and by the way men

young men have a very

a shortage of opportunities to demonstrate excellence

to demonstrate the kind of

masculine virtues that women see

and are attracted to and want

you know that

that make them want to be part of their lives

and so it's what do we do about that

what do we do and how do we train our boys

to break through that cycle

yeah and and

and I agree with a lot of what you're saying just

you know what I was speaking to earlier

I know you know

it could sound provocative

and that's not at all my intention

um I mean

I agree as I as I just said a moment ago

with a lot of what you're saying

I think there are a lot of young women out there

who are open to the

idea of possibly being in a relationship

um and they feel

that a lot of the you know

the the young men out there

just really aren't viable candidates at all

for a lot of the reasons you know

they they

they just can't be

they can't check off on the checklist for

in a lot of areas

and I do think there there absolutely is truth to that

like you talked about in terms of income right

education work ethic

I mean these are all very understandable

reasons that a lot of young women would say okay

well hold off buddy

you know you really

you don't you don't

measure up in these areas

that are really important to me

and that of course makes perfect sense yeah

but I also do think that there is a bit of a backlash

right now that I agree

where that

that there is a bit of a backlash as well as that

that doesn't really get talked about

that I think is important

that a lot of boys and young men sense and feel

and feel like what's the point of bringing it up

because I'm just gonna get attacked

that's one of the things I hear from a lot of

of older boys and young men

why when when when I hear

you know guys being trashed in my classes

you know toxic masculinity

this toxic masculinity

that why should I speak up when I see

when either I have in the past

or I've seen other guys do it and

they just get cut down sometimes even by the teachers

what's the point and I get that yes

so what happens is that they

they really kind of retreat

you know that this is a vicious cycle

it is it is

so it's it's a bit complicated because

you know as

as you said there are some really important

really viable reasons why a lot of young women

are hesitant to be in relationships with

with a lot of guys that they feel that

that aren't really you know

aren't really measuring up

yeah and

and that said there also is a bit of an anti

male bias that's pervasive right now

yeah that really does

you know I think

really send the message that

you really don't need a guy at all

it's really unimportant because you've

you've got a great career

you've got a dog you've got

you've got your you've got your girls to

you know to go on trips with

and to go out and have your girls night out with

why do you need a guy yeah

and I think that's there really is a lot of

that mentality that's pervasive

that um

I think is is a different part of the equation

that doesn't get discussed enough at all

yeah yeah

I I

I totally agree with you and

and again I yeah

I mean like

like you said it's

it's a vicious cycle in the sense that

there's not enough masculinity out there

so the women look around

they don't see what they're looking for

but then the instant any boy sticks his head up and

and tries to assert masculinity in the way that he

that that that he wants to do it

he gets shot down all the other boys see that happen

they're like I don't want that to be me

and because we're like culturally really

really

insensitive to the fact that boys

need to be able to cultivate their masculinity

in a healthy way

and there are unhealthy ways to cultivate masculinity

and if we don't allow them to cultivate it in a in a

in a healthy way

they will cultivate it in secret in an unhealthy way

absolutely and culturally

the backlash that you're talking about

is creating a situation where they're not able they

they don't feel comfortable doing it in a healthy way

because because

because of

of the of that backlash you're talking about

so of course

we're just gonna drive them into the arms of people

who are grifting on them trying to get them to

to cultivate their masculinity in an unhealthy way

and I got news for you

that's doing a lot of damage to our society absolutely

absolutely and you know

that really you know I really feel like

it's such a natural

segueway to talk about the manifesto

right now because that's really where we're heading

you know exactly where I was gonna go next

the manifesto and then

and then the manifesto right yeah

yeah I mean absolutely Sean

it's it's exactly what

what what we know

what you just said is exactly what

I think is happening very much with the manosphere

because you know

when I would interview um

when I would interview older boys

and young men for this book

my next book one of the things I would ask them is

you know if they're familiar with any of the manifesto

influencers the most obvious being Tate

and a lot of them would say yeah

you know I've

I've followed you know

I've I would sometimes follow

you know Tate a little bit

and there's you know

like I like what he has to say in terms of business

you know because he has this kind of

like little business school online yeah

but some of them really liked his business model

and some of them like some of the messages he has

there are actually

really good messages that more young men need to hear

about stop oversleeping

stop over gaming you know

you know get up come

you know have goals

commit to them

do not let them out of your sight and see them through

yeah and that is something right

I think we can both agree

so many young men need to hear today

and then some of them would say

but you know what I like even those messages

but when he starts getting off on this misogyny

shit that's that's that's when I'm done yeah

and so that's a part of the conversation

that doesn't get discussed at all

in conversations about the manosphere

and it's an important one because we never say to boys

why are you there in the first place

for those who are aware of why they're there

and do you and and are you

you know

are you really susceptible to these really awful

noxious messages that don't serve boys and don't serve

you know girls and don't serve anybody

and I think that yeah of course some of them do

absolutely

but it's not as rampant

and it's far more nuanced than a lot of people realize

which I think is good news

I think if we would yeah

find ways to make boys feel safe

and have conversations with them about this

I think we would learn a lot

if we would just shut up let them talk

lead with curiosity

I think we would get a lot more understanding

of who boys are today

and why they're in spaces like that

I do think you're right I think that a lot of boys

find themselves in these spaces

part of it is algorithms right

that's right but another part of it right

another part of it is

because they are looking for community

one of the things right

that boys find when they go into spaces

when they're getting into bodybuilding

when they're you know

when they're going to spaces

because they want to learn how to be better at gaming

there are these communities there

and of course the algorithms there for the manosphere

you know they're

they're insidious that's where they go

because they know that's where they can find recruits

uh huh that's absolutely part of it

no question

but there's also these communities that boys create

you know as they're perpetuating

you know the these these

you know these

I wouldn't say obsessions

but these interests that they have

you know for older boys

it really has become about body image

and that's a whole it's a whole another conversation

but it's really very much about body image and

you know bulking up

and they're trying to find ways to stay lean

but bulk up with muscle

and that's become a huge community for them

and so what happens is you know

they go to these places

and they're getting the strokes

they don't get anywhere else

and that feel a lot safer to them

where they don't get vilified for showing up

you know as a straight male

yeah I mean

as you said earlier

why wouldn't they go into these spaces if that's

if that's what they're getting

if this is the only safe place

neither one of us are saying that

we want them to stay in spaces

where they're getting misogynistic

misogynistic messaging

or messaging that is detrimental in any way

neither one of us are are

are floating that idea for a second

but I think we're both

we both understand something more nuanced

which is that boys are going there

sometimes for really valid reasons

of deeper needs that they have

that are not being met anywhere else

yeah it would be like

it would be like putting uh

vitamins into heroin

and then the only way you can get the vitamins

the essential amino acids

that you need in order to survive

the only way you can do it is by injecting this heroin

then you're surprised when people are injecting heroin

you can't be these are essential amino acids you need

you need to learn that no

you need to make your bed and

and uh

and you should get up early

and don't get addicted to porn and

and all of these other things

you need to learn those life lessons

and if the only people telling you

are people who are also wanting to inject heroin

in your brains

then you're gonna get heroin injected in your veins

whether or not you're you think you're falling for that

like you say oh

when he gets into the misogyny stuff

I'm not up for that

is that right in your heart of hearts

is that really right

because are you still watching or aren't you

and

that's something that

you're not likely to want to admit publicly either

that's right right

and I mean what we've done as a culture

is we've created a situation unwittingly

that the only way that that

that the most likely way that young men have

to get that message is over here

in this heroin injection needle

and we have to

we have to give them that message other ways

those messages other ways

we need positive male role models

and frankly you're not going to find that stuff online

you're not going to find it online

because the algorithm

is trying to peg you over into this other space

or it's trying to peg you over into this other

really unhelpful space

which is just gonna make you feel guilty

for being a boy absolutely

yeah absolutely

it's you know

where boys are right now is very much in a place of you

you

you know going

tying back to that idea of independence

they're very much in the space of

I need to figure this out for myself

and this is something I've heard time and time again

from from boys and young men

yeah um

just as a quick aside

when I go to a lot of boys schools

and do work at boys schools

and I'll get a chance to talk with them

and I'll ask roomfuls of them

raise your hand if you feel like you believe that

most of the problems that

that come your way you really

as an ascending man you need to be handling yourself

many rooms it has been nothing but a sea of hands I

I can imagine and

OK and occasionally

occasionally Sean

there are a few hands that are

that are not up which is

you know which is slightly encouraging to see

but it's that notion that they're on their own

yeah and we also don't really interfere with boys

because we feel like well

I want them to become more independent because look

we know that

a lot of them really do need to learn independence

yeah

but the problem with a lot of boys and young men is

they think it's again

you know it's an all or nothing proposition

that if they're gonna be independent

it's gotta be across the board with everything right

and they don't understand the nuances of that

I have to constantly talk with my 14 year old son about

about you know

learning to ask for help you know that

that there you know

that there is a strategy to this

and that learning to ask for help is a

it can be a form of strength and a form of wisdom

which are two things

all boys and young men need more of

but the crazy thing about that is when you're that age

when you're 14 15

16 17

18 you're in school

there is nobody that won't help you

I know there is no man there is no

there is no 14 year old boy

who could come up to me and ask me for anything

that I wouldn't help

I would and

and I mean

that goes for everybody if you have a hero

you can ask the CEO of some company

you could probably and you

and you wrote him and you said man

I really love this about you

and I really look up to you

would it be okay

if I sat down with you for a cup of coffee

sometime within the next couple months

it would work

men want to be there to help other men

they just have to be asked

and yet we never feel comfortable asking

that's right that's crazy

that's exactly right we don't we

we you know

we part of it is because we are part of the problem

as I was saying earlier yeah

you know we

we unwittingly think that we're doing boys a good turn

but part of it is that we don't

we don't teach them really a kind of really healthy

risk taking independence

you know

we don't do a good job of really explaining to them

what really healthy independence can look like

and what really unhealthy independence can look like

we don't really break it down for them

we just kind of

expect them to pick it up through osmosis

yeah and you can't expect

as you were just alluding to earlier

you can't expect a boy who's 14 or 18 or even 19

maybe even twenty to pick this up on his own

if everyone around him that matters to him whose

whose um

you know

whose validation they seek all these kids their

their age

if they don't see them doing anything differently

why would they do it because as far as they can see

they're doing the same thing

that they've been taught to do

and so it really is this kind of unspoken

you know it's

it's like a bad sitcom you know

where you see

where like everything is unspoken and you see this

this character going through the scene

and you're just thinking oh no

he's gonna screw it up again because because you know

you know there's this unspoken expectation

everybody thinks

the other one knows what they're doing yeah

it is like a bad sitcom

that's the perfect that's the perfect simile

that's exactly right and you just know like

you know that it's

or he's like he's walking around in the dark and

you know he's gonna bump into all of these things

and everyone's laughing at him

and he knows everybody's laughing at him

and what a what an experience for that person

it's and we have we're setting it up like that

absolutely we

we are and we really do need to to find ways to really

you know to I wouldn't say hack

I think that that

that's kind of has a negative connotation for me

at least but I really feel like

we do need to find ways to tap into boys

and their beings you know

slash lives um

and it really it's up to us

not them you know

too often we we think that

part of the independence equation with boys

is giving them all the room that they insist

that they need mm hmm

and you know

when your brain hasn't fully matured your

you know and a big part of that is the frontal cortex

yep which has to deal with reactivity

yep and

and you know

making emotional making emotional

you know decisions and not having that long term vision

horizon vision that I call it

to be able to think about the future

you know why would we leave all of this up to them

at a certain point we have to say look

I know you wanna be independent

I respect that but there also are times that we at

you know me as your parent

we as your parents

need to kind of step in and we need to check in

and we need for you to work with us

yeah you know

one of the things that I think is so important is that

you know a

that we're not really doing that with boys

and B

is that you know

we also don't make them part of this dynamic

you know a lot of times it's

it's the it's extremes

we give them way too much rope because we think we're

we're we're giving them what they need

yeah or

or we we speak down to them

yeah which as boys are growing

older they want

more than anything to show that they can handle it

you know that that

that they're becoming these responsible young adults

it is more of a balancing act

and boys also will even though they

even though they will push back and fight

I defy anybody to say that any boy

deep down doesn't want to know that some parent

or parents have their back

even if they're not willing to come to them and say

all right let's talk about this

yeah I

I'll give you I'll give you a great example

yeah how many times

you know have we been out in public

and we're having a crummy day

and we drop something you know we

you know you know

we're coming out of the out of the grocery store

you know our arms are full

you know or

you know we're coming out of any store and

and you know

the bag starts to fall

or something comes through the bag

I don't find anybody to say that

when somebody comes by and says

let me get the door for you or here

you drop this I defy anybody to say

no matter what age you are

on some level that does not feel really good

we all need to know that

there are people out there who have our backs

and boys need to know this

because they don't get it anywhere else

yeah even if they don't respond to it

they just need to know if and when you're ready

I'm here I'm totally here for you

yeah I think maybe that is one of the primary

responsibilities of us as parents is

is they

if if you

if your son is 15 or 16

and doesn't feel like his parents have his back

no matter what

his parents are there for him and have his back

then we failed as a parent

we failed our son in that way

now let me

I would love to like drill down a little bit

you're in the trenches

you mentioned you have a 14 year old boy

this is the front line of the war

this is we're

I mean we're running experiments

we're running this massive experiment on our boys

on our 14 year old boys in particular

in giving them a device in their pocket

that gives them 24 by 7 access to gaming

24 by 7 access to gambling

24 by 7 access to porn 24 by 7 access to messaging

and all of this crazy stuff and rumor Mills

all of that stuff and they're there

how so

and I think I mean

10 years from now we'll have it a lot more figured out

God willing but you're on the

you're on the freaking front lines of it

what are the specific tactics that you're using

to try to help steer your boy through these times

yeah it's

you know and

and we are in these fraud times

there's no question about it and

and I do think the stakes are higher for boys

than girls um

for some of the reasons we've talked about the state I

I don't know if it's fair to say they're higher

they're just totally different

well it's

it's a it's a different dynamic

I think yeah

one of the things

the reason I say that the stakes are higher

I don't think for one second

and let me clarify this if it needs clarifying

I don't think for one second

that there isn't a world out there

that is deleterious to girls

and young women on

on social media especially

cause there's absolutely positively

100% is yeah

the difference

I think is that they don't go through the through

through through their lives

thinking all these horrible things that I'm taking in

and internalizing that I experience on social media

I've got to handle this on my own

that is a giant game changer

so when I say that the stakes are higher

I don't mean that the initial um

you know that the initial factors that are

that are really deleterious to them

are any different for girls

because they're exactly the same

I totally agree with that

the difference is the way that they manage it once they

once they receive and internalize it

that's a big factor that's different

and so I'll

I'll tell you something else that's different

in exactly that same way and you're 100% right

and it's important to make that distinction

and something else that's different is culturally

we acknowledge that the challenges that girls face

in that sense are not appropriate

they shouldn't have to face them like that

yeah but the challenges that boys face

oh this boy is addicted to porn

it's his fault this boy is addicted to gambling

it's his fault

let alone that we put a casino in his pocket

it's his fault he got addicted to it

yeah and

and so from a cultural standpoint

it's like we look down on the boys

we treat it like an addict

and we treat it the way we treat addicts right

it is oh

well you were too

you were so weak

that you got yourself into that situation

and we we and

and we treat the problems that girls face

much more like a disease oh

they caught this disease

and that is particularly unhelpful for boys

on the boys side of things

and so the stakes are higher

absolutely it's what it really boils down to Sean

and it speaks to and this really speaks to

what you're really talking about

is that we do a great job of protecting girls

and we don't feel that we should have to protect boys

yeah that's right

because boy because boys ultimately should be able to

to really kind of

pull themselves up by their bootstraps

and handle themselves yeah

and and nothing could be further from the truth

yeah um

uh

you to give you one really good example

um there was a really

great study that came out a while ago

which showed that when relationships end

romantic relationships you know

heterosexual relationships

when they end that initially

girls and young women struggle a lot more emotionally

than than the male counterparts do

but they get over it

because they've got that safety net

they learn how to process it

the males not at all

they might find somebody quickly to kind of

replace them in the moment right

but they don't get over

they don't process and they don't do the inner work

and that's the kind of thing we're speaking to

it's this Assumption and and that really that

that to me

that study is a good example we're talking about

we assume that because a lot of boys

and men will go out and get somebody

to maybe have some you know

have some party time with and some sex with

that they've gotten over it

and nothing could be further from the truth

because when they get back home

you know they're

they're drinking by themselves

and they're struggling with

with with the pain and the rejection that they

that many of them really will not get over in many ways

that's what we're talking about

you know and to

we have these assumptions that

you know we do

we do a admirable job of protecting girls as we should

but we need

to do a much better job of protecting boys as we should

and we don't again

it's yes and right

I mean it's yes exactly yes

protect both of them it's

it doesn't

it just doesn't have to look the same

it doesn't take away from one to protect the other

no it doesn't

and it doesn't have to look the same

you know you know

a great example of this dynamic

that we've been talking about

you know during this time is that

you know we think

we as Americans we look at suffering in

you know we look at suffering in

in very kind of you know

very kind of binary ways I have

I should

I should have nothing that I should be talking about

or complaining about or

or venting about

because the person next to me has really struggled

they have really struggled

yeah and

you know there was this in

in the this wonderful book called Man

Search for meaning by Viktor Frankl Frankel

talks about that suffering is

is like a gas in a vessel

no matter how little

or how much gas you put into that vessel

it's gonna diffuse equally to all parts of that

of the inside of that vessel the same

and he said suffering is like that

is that no matter how small

how medium or how large it's gonna be the same

and one of the things that

you know is that we think that well boys

are tougher they can handle the suffering

we like to tell ourselves that

because it really makes it convenient for us

yeah but boy

but we

all we have to do is look at the ways of what happens

when you see these documentaries of these older boys

and these young men in prison

and you hear them in these programs

where they're learning how to open up

it's the same story time and time and time again right

there was there was bullying there

there was horrible mistreatment

there was all these feelings

you know of

of deep wells of shame

suffering that

they always felt

like they shouldn't have to talk about it

they should be sucking it up and dealing with it

this is this is universal

doesn't matter if boys are lower socioeconomic or not

suffering is suffering is suffering

and we really need we really need to measure

we really need to level up and help boys learn

you know

how to deal with the suffering that they experience

because they all experience it in these quiet

desperate ways

so you know

and but another viewpoint to that

and by the way I don't agree with this viewpoint and

but I'm interested to hear what you would say to it

is that suffering makes you stronger

what it can yeah

what do you how do you

I mean so isn't suffering good in that sense

suffering suffering

the people who get the most out of

suffering you know

especially when you're talking about really deep

deep intense suffering

um are often people who have come through the fire yeah

right they

they they

they they have come through the crucible

and they've gone through the process

they haven't tried to just kind of like

like run around it they've gone through the fire yeah

and those are people who have worked through

all the different angles of their suffering

and they come out stronger because of it

but when people try to do an end run around suffering

and they're not really learning

the lessons of suffering it hasn't strengthened them

you know and

and you know

the the best example of that

you know is

is when you look at army vets

you know and

and they come back you know

and and they have

you know PTSD

you know

especially these ones who have been through combat

and

you know when they finally when

when especially these young men when

when they finally get to the point and you

you know you again

documentaries validate all this

it's the same thing like the young men in

in prisons

when they finally get to the point

that they're able to really open up

and not feel that

opening up and being vulnerable is a weakness

they learn that it's a strength

that's when they can look

get on that road to recovery

to really work through the suffering

and learn how to find the

value and the meaning in that suffering

I would agree with you that suffering is strength

only if

we learn how to really develop the inner courage

to work through that suffering

and to come out the other end through the fire

and to find the you know

the value in what we suffered through

I I'll add a little bit to that

which is something that made me think of

which is that it's also the case

that the world has a surplus of suffering

the world will provide all the suffering

your boy ever needs to become strong

you don't need to help it along

and in fact

on the opposite side of that coin

part of being a man part of

part of learning to be a healthy man

is a reflex towards Protection

meaning if you see something out there in the world

where somebody strong is preying on somebody weak

your reflex should be to prevent that

to stop that in some way to protect the weak person

that's part of what it means to be a healthy man

how is your boy supposed to learn that

if he doesn't experience that from you

if you're letting him suffer

in ways that you could have prevented

and again there's

there's attention here as there is with everything

there's attention you know

sometimes boys need to experience the

well it's not even sometimes

it's all the times boys need to experience the

the uh

consequences of their actions

but that doesn't mean but

but if they're suffering

not as a result of their own actions

if they're suffering as a result of societal pressures

or these other things

then you should be there to protect them

and it doesn't actually turn them into a man

to let them experience that necessarily

the world is gonna provide plenty of that absolutely

no question about that

but I would even take that a step further

I would say Sean that that you know

even when a boy is suffering

you know because of not external forces

but of of his own doing yeah

I think that is equally as important

to help him learn how to process through oh

so he went through yeah

and the suffering I I think it's you know

I I really do

I really do think that we do boys and in turn

society a horrible service when we just assume that

well there's certain kinds of suffering

you really need to go through your own

and you just need to kind of

suck it up and deal with it

I think that we make our voice stronger when we teach

when we help them learn how to like

process through some of the suffering

and then it really kind of

helps them build up some of the calluses that they do

need for when

you know when it will come through

and they can learn to kind of deal with it a

little bit better I think

to be honest with you

and I'm not ever saying that we should raise

you know boys to be girls

but I think that when you look at a lot of girls

and young women who are very resilient

one of the reasons

I really am convinced they are so resilient

is because they have encountered suffering

but they've Learned how to process through

and they've Learned to rely and and

and work and look for that safety net

to help them through that process

and it makes them stronger

it's like that that broken bone right yeah

that when it when it heals

it's stronger because of it right

I really do believe that

that we really do boys and in turn

the rest of us a horrible disservice

when we assume that the suffering is good for them

and that they should be doing it alone

because it just perpetuates that lone wolf mentality

yeah that's so true man

I love I

I like that perspective I've gotta

I've gotta think more about

about that tension and uh

because you know

I have this reflex

I have that reflex and it's not all that healthy like

like you know

come rub some dirt into it

you know that kind of thing

and uh

you know some of that might be appropriate

some of it's not I

I uh

yeah I've got to think about that a little bit more

yeah no

it's it's look

I mean it's

it's it's no question it

this really you know

this is definitely

getting into that whole idea of the independence

it's a it's a complicated one yeah

you know because we do yeah

you know as parents

we do we're not perfect

we do our best to figure out

when we need to pull back a little bit

and when you know

and when we definitely need to be there

um I think the important thing that really

we should always give to boys

is the understanding that

if and when you are ready

I'm right here for you yeah

because that that is a gift

I know that sounds overly simplified

it's not for boys and men

because a lot of us never get that

a lot of us never get that

knowing that there are people who love them

unconditionally and that are gonna be there regardless

come what may just

just say I'll

that door is open I'm here for you

that is not something a lot of boys still get and

and that alone is a great start

yeah and it doesn't go without saying yeah

exact yeah

it doesn't I mean

you need to show it too

but it doesn't go without saying absolutely

well I always like to uh

finish up these conversations with uh

by asking everyone basically the same question and uh

I I

I put people on the spot so

so uh

so apologies in advance for

that but

but the question is

if you could just kind of

I don't know if I ask you for one principle that that

that parents of young men should keep in mind when

when they're trying to turn their

their boys into excellent men

what would that principle be

well

there's a couple things that come to mind Shawn

but I'll lead with this

the more that boys push us away

the harder they push the more they need us

because there's so much dissonance within boys

on the one hand when they're really struggling

and we can see it if we're really looking

when they're really struggling

a lot of boys

you know a lot of the irritability

and the hostility and the anger

and I see this in my 14 year old son

yeah you know

I can see this inner fight within himself

this dissonance where on the one hand

he's really struggling

you know

and wants to be able to talk with his mother or me

or both of us together

about what it is he's wrestling with

but there's that other part of him

that other messaging he gets from outside of us

that tells him you're weak

you're you know

you're not measuring up if you go to your parents

what are you

gonna go to your parents all the time to help you

solve all your problems

that's the other voice on his other shoulder and and so

you know

when we need to let boys know we need to really I

I work with my son on this all the time and

and I do it a lot in the car rides to school

cause I've been really fortunate in that

is that really through you know

for many years you know

we've had to drive him to school

which is a blessing and a curse yeah

but cause it's a long drive

but it's been I really

at the end of the day it's more of a blessing

because I've used so many of those days

to talk about the kind of

things that you and I are talking about yeah

and I talk about this idea of with him

you know I try to make it really

I try to normalize it

and that's a really important thing with boys

is normalizing you know

and I know I'm covering a bunch of ground here

so I apologize but I think this is

you know it's all part of the same thing

it's really important to get boys to understand um

that we understand to some extent

what they're going through

and that and that

and that everybody goes through it

because so many boys think they go through it alone

yeah and to really let them know that the door is open

and the other thing that's really important is that

a lot of boys don't get this

is that if and when boys do come to us

it's really important that we lead with curiosity

that we not judge and we don't minimize

a lot of us are very uncomfortable with boys

when they get not just really angry

but even really upset

it makes a lot of us really uncomfortable

even our own sons

and it's really important

that we understand that

boys are paying close attention to the ways that we

respond to them when they are upset

they are they are paying close attention because they

because they they

they they're afraid of being rejected

and so

it's really important that we lead with curiosity

and we just be really good listeners

we just bear witness for them

yeah and I think that is a really important thing

to start practicing for boys

to just keep reminding them

once is not enough it doesn't get through with boys

I'm sorry it just doesn't

once is not enough and

you know I've worked with boys for a long time

once is not enough

but we need to keep reminding them at different times

that the door's open

and that if and when they want to talk

we are here and that if and when they do come to us

that it's really important that we be really present

and you know

and that we we not judge

we not minimize and again

that we make sure that they know

that we're really listening

and again like I said earlier

you know sometimes the best thing we

can do is just bear witness

because sometimes boys just need that

yeah

you know I

uh when I was in high school

before I could drive it's eighth grade

ninth grade that kind of time

um I went to a school that was 45 minutes away

in morning traffic by car

and my mom drove me to school

and it was two years right

of that five days a week she would drive me to school

she'd spend a lot of time

it was an hour and a half for her right

it was a round trip

and that was the best time of my life

it was

that connection that we got

and the stuff that we got to talk about

it was the most formative

most important part of my whole life

and you're lucky you're lucky to have it with your boy

absolutely so let me ask you a question

sure did you did

do you remember if you felt that way

in any shape or form back then

do you remember I don't remember

yeah I

did you ever tell your mother

I did I did

um I

I had a chance to tell her before she passed

I I had a chance

to tell her a lot of that stuff

that's great and we got lucky

I got lucky in that respect cause

cause um

and she was I mean

she was so amazing but I'll tell you there's

there's a story that I can

I can illustrate I don't

I don't think I I

consciously recognized

how important that was to me at the time

but then there was an when I was in a

when I was in ninth grade

I was getting bullied a lot by this one other guy

and man I was just struggling

and around the same time

my mom was going through some stuff

and so she was struggling

and as a result of my struggles

I was really acting out and I was being an asshole

and I remember this one time that she

was kind of snapping at me

she was like had enough of my stuff right

and um

and it was on the way home from school one day

and I

I had lost that connection for that car ride

I lost the connection and

you know I lost it from stuff I did but

I I thought

I mean I felt suicidal at that moment

I mean I was going through such tough stuff

and I had severed the this such

so important connection that I

I didn't recognize at the time

I needed

and uh

and so I don't think I consciously recognized it

but I think deep down I really

really understood because when it was withdrawn

for just that one car ride it

it felt like a an existential threat to me

it was it was uh

so yeah

I mean

I don't know I

I uh

cherish that time ha ha your

your boy is gonna cherish that time yeah

and and

you know well

I I I

you know

thank you for adding that to the conversation that

that's a really powerful anecdote Sean

well Andrew

thank you so much for for taking the time um

you know and for everybody listening

you can find Andrew's work including Better Boys

Better Men and Boys Reconnected in the show notes

you know take a look at these books

buy the books I'm telling you like it

you know this is

this is such powerful messages Andrew

thank you so much for putting it out in the world and

and having the courage to do this stuff

you started doing this stuff

at a time when these messages aren't as well received

as they are today um

and everybody I

I highly recommend diving deeper into Andrew's writing

especially if you're raising a son in today's world um

thank you so much everybody

for joining us on raising men

thank you for watching and listening

please like share and subscribe

and remember that you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino