totally to me uncontroversial statement

that there's science

about why boys and men struggle and suffer

there is science about gender

sensitive

and informed ways to work with those men and boys

and I have an ethical obligation to go get on that

and that's what I'm doing here

it doesn't have to be everybody else's frame

but I'm I'm not looking to make converts

welcome back to raising men

when we talk about raising boys today

it's easy to get lost between extremes

about talking about toughness on one side

and emotional suppression on the other

but

we don't have to choose between cultivating strength

and sensitivity my guest today

might show us how

emotional resilience is one of the greatest gifts

a parent could pass down to their son

Dr Dan Singley is a psychologist

researcher

and the founder of the center for Men's Excellence

his work

helps men navigate the transition into fatherhood

strengthen their relationships

and build emotional tools for life

he's also the force behind

behind Men Excel a movement

empowering men to show up

with courage and authenticity in every area of life

among many other things Doctor Dan

thank you so much for joining us here today

you're a busy man thanks

yeah I appreciate you having me out

I'm like well

now I gotta teach everybody how to

you know have emotional resilience and

and get their kids straight

we're we got a lot to cover

here today in about in about 20 minutes

it's a it's a tall order

but I think you're ready for it

ha ha no

thanks for having me on now

you've dedicated your career

to something that barely existed as a specialty

when you went to grad school

which is the psychology of men and fatherhood

now that turned out to be a surprisingly brave choice

didn't it what drew you to this work

and what were some of the challenges you faced

so there's an old saying you know

research is me search and I ended up

I was in grad school I was doing like whiteness

like white racial identity development work

um and really

no one in grad school ever even talked about male

gender we talked about every femininity and

and trans

and gender non conforming and queer identities

and so forth

but sis masculinity was just completely off radar

and embarrassingly it I didn't even occur to me

and it was when I got out here to

to UC San Diego

that a now very good friend and mentor of mine

talked about early fatherhood

and the psychology of men

and that it was an existing area of specialty

I had a three week old at that time and was like

how the hell did I not think about like my

my fatherhood identity and like really what that means

and then from there I got and joined

you know joined the San Diego Psych

Association at the local level to do

they have a men's issue

we have a men's issues committee

and then I ended up getting involved with the

American Psychological Association and

and the division that focuses on the

on the psychology of men and

and just through the years

I have increasingly focused on the science

you know the psychological science of men and

and my research is on early fatherhood

so paternal perinatal and reproductive mental health

or just the due to dad transition

um and so we end up doing a lot of that

yeah you know

you you just mentioned that

how in your doctoral gender class

you covered everything under the sun

except cisgender masculinity

why do you suppose that is

and what are the consequences of that

so um

I work to stay the hell out of

of culture wars and politics and all of that

that's not my book my friend

my focus is on how do I take the information

the science the evidence based

the research and turn it into actionable work

and at the same time

like you're asking a fairly straightforward question

and the short version of it comes down to

because in many if not most areas of US life

men and boys hold unearned power of privilege as a

as a function of their gender

then institutions like the APA

which has has rightly focused heavily on

you know over the past 30 years

elevating girls and women

in the field uh

you know people of color

people with different sorts of disabilities

marginalized backgrounds

but it's never really been on the Apas

radar to focus specifically on men and boys

if you're talking about trans men

yes if you're talking about black men

yes but if you're just talking about like

boys and men writ large that's gotten very

very little attention over the years

and it's the APA who sets the training standards for

if you're gonna get a master's

or you're gonna get a PhD um

and a colleague of mine right now in

in the division on the psych of men

is actively working to get that added however

she's running up against a lot of

of blocks because wow

the same folks that tend to lose their minds

when they feel like the other side is taking

an all or nothing

zero sum frame themselves usually come from a place of

wait wait

you're trying to empower boys and men

that means you're pro patriarchy

and a men's rights advocate

and by doing that you're

you're holding women and girls down

and that's just not true like

like Jim Crow didn't hurt white people

no legalizing gay marriage didn't hurt straight people

supporting men and boys

does not hurt people of other genders

in fact the research generally says

the rising tide floats all boats

and so I just keep coming back to that

yeah and I mean

that feels true also it's

it's more than just the research it it uh

it's empirically

kind of obvious that the better everyone does

the better everyone does

yeah I'm like

do you are are you a father

no do you have one

OK so this is relevant to you right

like right

or or do you have men you care about in your life

or do you have boys that you want to turn into men

all of those things I mean

this is 95% of the population

and you're just ignoring it

yeah and it's one of the things that

particularly these days when

and we can back into this if you'd like

but um

young people but in particular young boys

have a much rougher go

in terms of what it means to be a man and a boy

and how to navigate that

then I would say a lot of previous

previous generations did

like the lines are getting blurred and

and what it means to be tough and a man and a boy and

and just just to your intro

I would say a lot of those aspects of what we call

like being sensitive or being emotionally intelligent

and then acting on that behaviorally

I would

I would submit that in many ways taking that risk to

to step out of the traditional guy box

is one of the most courageous and manly things

ironically that some of these people can do

I would agree

do you think that

there is a problem with masculinity today

hahaha okay

so let me let me tease that one out a little bit

absolutely I

I know you

how you like to avoid culturally sensitive issues

so let me ask you that question no

it's actually not that I'm a psychologist

if I answer a direct question

they'll pull my license like I'm not allowed

so I love it no

I what I would say is that um

what it means to be a man continues to evolve

and while some folks see

the evolving nature of masculinity

as masculinity being under attack

I see masculinity as being under construction

in such a way that allows

look also tobacco um

a lot of times when I'm training

I'll do a quick word association and say okay

just what comes to mind when I say

you know

like masculinity and it's 50% of the time it's toxic

yeah right

and

and there have been some pretty unfortunate messaging

in the past that equate masculinity

with being bad and with being toxic

but again I'm just very

very briefly the research in this area is

is is unequivocal

it is not being male it is not masculinity per se

which is which is problematic

it is being rigidly only willing to be that traditional

stoic aggressive independent

you know successful aggressive

like all this um

in all contexts so

it's the rigidity about only doing the Marlboro Man

routine yeah

even when the situation calls for empathy compassion

emotional intelligence

receiving influence from someone else

being able to have productive conflict

instead of talk first talk louder

stack the data and all that

and when when men and

and you know

beginning with boys

learn to have that kind of flexibility

or I can be super aggressive in a contract negotiation

over here or as a

as a warrior right

but on the other side I go home and I try to

you know tell my wife like

you better ask how high on the way up

like that's not gonna work

and I have yeah

I have had many opportunities with a front row seat

with my patients that doesn't work

but when you have that flexibility to enact that

that what a lot of what we have traditionally called

like feminized traits which they're not

they're just human but when you can do both

you live five to six years longer

divorce rates plummet

depression rates and anxiety rates plummet

deaths of despair drug use

like problematic covid like

all these things that we want for the boys and men

that we know

generally

come from being able to operate within the guy box

and do that traditional thing

when that's what's called for

but to also then

have the maturity to recognize

that isn't what's called for in this other area

and to take the risk and as I said before

that courageous risk to show up in a different way

cause you're running the risk of being shamed and

and being called a wuss

and when you look at the psyche of men

shame and vulnerability are two of the thorniest

most difficult psychological issues that we deal with

yeah that's so amazing

I think if if you marketed a pill on the internet

that you could take

that would have all of those benefits

that you just talked about

about the the depression rates and and um

and the feeling of belonging and divorce

and all of those things you'd buy it in a heartbeat

but for

there is this cognitive dissonance associated with

evolving away from or

or rising above this traditional masculine role

it protects you from shame

yeah that's what it is

and yeah and

and that shame you know

if if I were gonna push back on that

what I would say is that well

aren't you just trying to turn men into wusses

what what do you think about that

what what is

what is the answer to that push back

I don't I

I'm not sure how this fits

with the demographic of your listeners

but this is what George Carlin used to always call

the pacification of the American male yeah

and I bring that point up because this is not new

like the the historical records

going back hundreds and hundreds of years to um

you know England in the 17th century

had kings worried that the introduction of tea was

going to cause lethargy in boys

and you know

the Boy Scouts were founded early 20th century

because of fears that boys were becoming soft

and they didn't have a like

so this thing about

we're losing traditional masculinity is not in any way

new nor is it necessarily even true

what keeps happening is generation after generation

has to evolve and adapt to different circumstances

technological social

academic like financial certainly um

and we have to do the downstream figuring out well wait

who does this make and it's particularly different

like one of one of the very

very top issues when you look at the reports that

look at the state of men these days

is this sense of I don't have the financial

power that previous generations did

I followed the American dream

I went to school I went to work

I worked hard I'm supposed to be upwardly mobile

but the current generation

they're the first one in recorded history

in our country where they're not gonna do as well

as their parents did

even if you follow all of these things

now if you take that

that hit that a lot of these men are now experiencing

post 2,008 subprime mortgage crisis

post covid and into now and

and then you stand hard on the traditional

you're a dude so protector provider

mm hmm well

if I feel emasculated with respect to my job

let's say

my partner makes significantly more money than I do

then how do I square that with I have to be a protector

I have to be a provider and that's just one like

you get further away from that with like

mental health issues like if you're gonna be a guy guy

like a hardcore guy guy do you get to be depressed

hell no you get to have anxiety

that's for wusses right

actually

we've done research on this and generally speaking

depression is a feminized

mental health issues in general is a

is a feminized concept wow

which of course we all made up right

it's just socialized

but when you wanna understand some of the major

major issues that boys and men are facing these days

there's usually a broader

like societal context you gotta understand

and then

how that's coming into conflict with these Learned

male roles that are very old

it goes back to what you were talking about

the flexibility there

it's the inflexibility that is causing that distress

and and so what is what is the right vision of

of a balanced masculinity

as opposed to this kind of rigid view that

that we that we have by default

there is no one size fits all like who am I

who am I to come into your home and tell you hey

the way that you

and your partner are enacting your gender roles

is wrong like yeah

I that's that's totally up to you

like so like when you every curve

has two tails every normal standardized curve

and so there are gonna be people that are

you know hardcore in one way or the other

generally speaking for the men my message is

sit back and ask yourself

what parts of doing the traditional

like Marlboro Man guy thing

what parts of those are truly serving you

versus what parts of those are holding you back

but in in a given household

there's

there's just no there's no right or wrong way to do it

but so case example would be um

look at Covid like during Covid yeah

so my research is on early fatherhood right

so I focus a lot on dads but broadly speaking

men did way more of the domestic duties and child care

and care giving than they had previously

cause now they were at home yeah

but if they didn't work outside the home before

they were there and the dishes

he's standing right next to him

the kid that needs the diaper change

he's standing right next to it

and so it's not like oh

I gotta go to the office and set up my email

it's like boom

let's do this right

and so there was a spike in that

now plenty of other stuff was going on in covid

people lost their jobs women lost their jobs

workforce still hasn't recovered in that way and so on

but as we move on now we're like

you know five years past it's

regressing back to the me yeah

men are doing less and

and that's okay for any given family

but to be thoughtful and intentional about it

instead of that's man's work

that's woman's work you can do that if you choose

and that's the values of your household

but you're also setting up a greater likelihood that

actually

there's a lot of gray in terms of what's man's work and

and what's woman's work

now people respond to this differently

like people have different political takes um

certainly um

religious theological frames

draw the bear

about what's the identity of men and fathers

and so forth

and if that you take cool like incorporate that however

if you're having some difficulty with this

consider some ways to work in empathy compassion

emotional intelligence

doing a sort of communication

to have more productive conflict

like this isn't just made up hocus pocus

this stuff is very well researched

and pretty straightforward to learn how to do

so

what does the research actually show about men who can

like go outside the house and go to the workplace

and be a hardcore badass in business and all of that

but then be empathetic

and be vulnerable with their family

and their kids and their friends

well one thing that I would say is

that dude that has that kind of flexibility

is also much more likely to rise higher at work

right like where I am in San Diego

we're surrounded by tech and biotech

and engineers and computer science

and executives and so forth

and just because you're a great coder or scientist

does not make you a great administrator

a lot of what makes people really solid beyond

you know the political you know

brinkmanship and

and the resource acquisition and so forth

is you can work with people

and you can do that well

not just the like people will take advantage of you

if you don't step on their neck like

I mean sure

some contexts will be like that

but I guess the thing I want to say is

there are benefits at work to this more

more balanced flexible like those folk

a friend of mine's writing a book

has written a book called strengths with Heart

and it's all about heartful strength and leadership

in the work context some of that research very

very clearly shows

followers will follow leaders more

when the leaders

make the followers feel seen and understood

it doesn't mean the leaders gonna do what they say

it means they help them see that

and then in the other areas of life

looking to you know directly cultivate

you know how

how am I gonna do one of the

one of the resources that I really

really like um

Eve Rodski has done a really cool work with fair play

now that came up out of the me too and um

times up and so on

um and the work that

she's done

one of the things she developed was this card sort

I'm familiar with it people sit down

so I have people do this all the time

and when a couple does it

I'll ask them be like OK

bring your cards in to next session

and then we'll talk about which of this stuff is manly

which of this stuff is just for girls or what not

and just that one conversation tends to start shifting

the yeah

it turns out particularly the parenting end of things

this is more like this is

there's a lot more gray here

I would say that's that's one example

that then translates to they live longer

they have less depression

they you know

like you don't do as much fentanyl

you know all that yeah

yeah I

I uh

so I've gone through that card exercise

uh with my wife and and

and I've seen other people go through that exercise

and it it was a

it was very healthy experience for me and my wife

um but I've witnessed

some other people that really had a tough time with it

the um

both parties became very defensive about

you know what they brought to the table and all of that

and it just absolutely descended into a

a a melee

and I mean I've seen it ruin relationships too

or maybe it maybe it didn't ruin the relationship

the relationship was already ruined

and what it did is just shine

the light on the fissure there

right so again

when I'm when I'm working to do this

before having a couple do that

or an individual of mine go back and do it

we do some solid work on the guy himself

learning about his own emotional dysregulation

like some cognitive behavioral work around

here's the meaning that I'm ascribing to that

and how to manage that

and then how to do some productive conflict

like how to how to lead assertively

not aggressively because you're right

that can stir why do you have so many cards

and I don't have enough cards

or you have the right ones

or I just can't back off and

and all this stuff yeah

you don't have cards for the stuff that I do

but only the stuff that you do

yeah yeah yeah

let's tease out I wanna

I wanna drill down a little bit into this dude to dad

um transition and a lot of the focus of

of your work specifically now

you've called father uh

early fatherhood

the tip of the spear for contemporary masculinity um

what do you what do you mean by that

yeah so what I mean by that is that fatherhood

in a particular more so now than ever

any cohort of of um

new dads in in history in our country

they're expected to be involved with pregnancy

with the birth in in the immediate postpartum

now there are all kinds of caveats we

can make here about different cultural groups

and geographically and so forth

but just generally speaking writ large

most people including the fathers themselves

expect to be more involved than statistically

their own father would have been

and to be involved not just in

you know keeping the saber tooth tigers away

and food on the table yes

that but now there's more of an expectation of well

can they make it to a well baby visit

can they go you know visit

you know

when they're gonna image their babies in utero heart

you know there

they can be part of the actual birth planning

for the experience and this is all brand new

and in part why I say this about the tip of the spear

is

men are being encouraged to be caring and caregiving

and in particular with their children

to a lesser extent with their partners

but it all kind of goes together

and so where I'm coming from is

this whole thing about balance and flexibility

and being a hardcore guy guy over here

and being able to be more

more flexible

and work the room in a more strategic way

with empathy and compassion and so forth

that can really begin in early fatherhood

when we as a society

give the dad permission to be caring and a caregiver

and to do some of these things that are a bit

in violation of like

you know traditional guy guy like who's gonna stand

up and be like dude

it's cool to be like an absentee father

like that's not the most popular opinion

you know these days now

what that looks like and how you're gonna be involved

there's no right or wrong way to do it

but that's that's one element of it

and and what I'm looking for a lot of like

you know policy and

and advocacy level work is now

let's look at some

ways to take the research around gender sensitive work

like like

uh programmatic development and work to continue that

like to stoke that spark of caring and caregiving

that starts in fatherhood

and then keep it going to romantic relationships

to friendships to extended family of theirs

not just a high like it's

it's kind of safe for a dad in some ways

to be very caregiving in a hierarchical relationship

like with an infant yeah

right that infant

and you can use that to help build that muscle

in other relationships yeah

that's it that so that's that's to me

that's the tip of the spear in the

in the evolution of what it means to be a man

because the evolution of what it means to be a father

is more of a yes

and than a you have to you have to be this or that

yeah I I think that formulation is really

really really helpful

and if you think about that as an opportunity

to cultivate this side that you

might not have had an opportunity to cultivate before

because of societal pressures or that sort of thing

it it really feels like wow

this is something I really wanna

you know it's something I wanna get stronger at

I mean especially if you think about our culture

you know it

it tries to put men in a box and

and tries to turn them into the

the marble man

but think about the way that our culture views a man

who is both strong and a caregiver

it's I mean

it's laudatory wouldn't you say

yeah haha

I'm right there with you I mean

I think I think there's

there's very little that is

that is as praised in our culture as a man who can

who can be that flexible and yet

it's not something that we're really taught to do

or it's

it's not something that we feel comfortable with

yeah yes

I guess that that scarcity is what makes it valuable

it can be very upsetting and scary

two people who for a variety of reasons

have come to count on that traditional guy

guy way of being when you start saying yeah yeah

that's okay and this other thing

because the other thing can seem very

very threatening uh huh

in that way

now some of your research focuses on this

paternal involvement with infants

and helping men make that dude to dad transition

as healthy as possible

so what are the key psychological shifts

that happen during that and

and what separates fathers

who really thrive

from those who end up struggling with that

so um

there are several factors

which best predict

the father's involvement with his infant

um factor 1 is his involvement during the pregnancy

right with the

it's very clear that

fathers that are more engaged during pregnancy

are also more present and engaged during the birth

and then are also more present and engaged

during the postpartum so

there's a strong argument to help

get their head in the game early

to start developing

what's called paternal role salience

or just the extent to which

I have an identity of being a dad

and the dads that have a higher paternal role salience

are more likely to be then involved and engaged

um another really key factor

is the extent to which the father perceives

that his

that that

that the relationship with his co parent is supportive

that's that

that across not just my research

like across across the whole field

typically one of the strongest

strongest factors

that predicts the father being highly engaged

with his infant is

he feels

a supportive and solid relationship with his co parent

when it's the opposite

and he feels really negatively about it

and his perception is this isn't going well oftentimes

um that translates to worse mental health

both for him and for his partner

and oftentimes

causes his partner to go into a gatekeeping

or gate closing mode

that controls the extent to which he has

access to the kid and so he can't be as involved

or involved in the ways that he wants to

this is by no means universal

but it's a fairly common dynamic that most of us

so it's either a virtuous cycle or a vicious cycle

and you sort of get to pick which one you're gonna

you're gonna fall into yeah

and so there are other factors like

you know you know trauma history depression lessons

certain kinds of involvement

part of what my team

did was to work to expand the concept of

father's involvement it used to just be

does he live there and does he contribute money

and then it was does he play

which all those are cool however

that doesn't encapsulate really

what's the modern frame on

on fathers and involved fathers of infants

and so we developed a scale that's multidimensional

it's got five different aspects of involvement

basically work and play and emotional involvement

and kind of like a meta perspective and indirect care

and that has changed the conversation from

is he involved or not to well

is he and what does that look like

and what are the factors that

support him being involved

and when he's involved in those ways

how is it helpful not just to his baby and partner

but to him himself and so

including fathers as a dependent variable in research

meaning how is the father impacted

by this that's fairly new

wow yeah

you know that you're

when you mentioned about the partners

um being supportive of each other it

it brings to mind a story from my own journey when

when my boy was first born um

my wife and I I mean

we thought we were prepared

but we were we were not

and we ended the first two weeks

she and I were just at each other's throats constantly

we were just it was like and

and I remember thinking I can't do this

like I cannot live my life this way

and then the next thought that occurred to me was that

I'm not gonna have to live my life this way

well I mean

it's gonna be so different in a year that it's

this isn't I mean

this is just a short term thing

like just just let it go and

and I remember sitting down with my wife and said

alright we need to make a deal

and our deal is we will not get divorced

no matter what happens

we will not get divorced before the baby turns

at least one

and so that actually gave us a time box where

where it'll

it actually freed us up to be supportive of each other

because we didn't have to worry that any given pain

or any given

negative situation was gonna last for very long and

and it enabled us to do that

and that's that was our

crazy little

weird mechanism of cultivating that in each other

I love that you did that as direct

like that's stopping

and really indexing on the fabric of the relationship

and saying yeah

things are changing

we don't know what's gonna look like in a year

we're not gonna make any rash decisions

between now and then

now let's figure this out together like good on you

yeah and you know

there's probably a positive way to to frame that like

no matter what I'm here for you

at least until this time

I don't know it was it was a weird way to do it

it worked for us and uh and um

I I

I don't know

I don't know if I would recommend it to anyone else

because actually there is a problem because when the

when the when the boys started turning a year old um

we had an issue where my wife actually

she broke down at one point in time

she's like oh

and you're gonna divorce me after he turns 1

I was like no man hahaha

that wasn't the deal it's the anyway

it was kind of a funny moment

I'll tell you another story along

along the lines of something you mentioned before

and that is

and I turn my cheek and my wife asked me she said

why did you turn your cheek

why didn't you just kiss him

and I said and I and I said to her I

said men don't kiss each other on the lips

and I realized in that moment like that is messed up

and I caught myself and I

and I didn't catch myself until about the next day

and I and I went back to my wife and I said listen

you know actually

that's really unhealthy and I'm gonna not do that

and then I started kissing my boy on the lips

and uh it was

it was it was a weird thing for me to go through

you know I love that because of the concreteness of it

and frankly when you get down to it how arbitrary yeah

it is and and I'll I'll I'll go you one for it's funny

it was just like you know personal bit a singly family

my grandfather kissed my dad on the lips

my dad always kissed us

I have two older brothers and like

I didn't think anything of it

until some kid in the second grade

like shamed me for it at the um

you know

in carpool and I was like it didn't even occur to me

I was like there's nothing like

you know sexual happening there

but I'll go you one further

the same kind of direct equating of

physicality and body parts

exclusively with with sexuality

has manifested in a series of fathers of

of little girl babies

who are terrified of their daughter's vaginas

because to them

their whole lives that was a sexual organ yeah

and now they have a little girl

and they can't rectify in their minds well

turns out it's not just a sexual organ

it's just part of your body that

you know variety of thing

but like and it

and the dads don't articulate it that way

they're just like

they're just kind of like Tinky or I don't know

but unfortunately they're

they're trapped in the room with a psychologist

and I'm like alright

we're gonna get into this and in many ways it does

it boils down to that like discomfort

and it's I would

I would say those are in the same basic arena of

we've sexualized it given sure

I mean kissing is physical intimacy no matter what

but from there we say all physical intimacy is sexual

and that is not true

wow that is really

and I'll tell you I mean

just as I'm examining that myself

I struggle with that too with my daughter

I and

and part of it is is discomfort

and part of it is there's a social stigma about that

and I I wouldn't want to go anywhere near being accused

of things and and uh

but yeah it's

it it feels

it feels risky at the same time

somebody's got to clean that baby

I mean you can't

you know you can't let the poop be in there

exactly right that's yeah yeah

actually it's

it's funny the other day um

she had a dirty diaper and

and literally

we're walking into her room to go change her diaper and

and uh

and she says to me she says dad

would you make sure to clean my vagina

she's she's 3 years old

yes baby

I will I get discomfort around it

my point isn't it shouldn't have discomfort

my point is let's look at where that's coming from

let's really look at where that's coming from

and then make a mindful intentional decision

about how I wanna show up as a parent

instead of you know

knee jerk reactivity

I think that's the perfect way to put it and

and just be thoughtful rather than just on autopilot

work on what your unconscious mind is telling you to do

bring it into your conscious mind

and make an intentional decision

to do whatever the thing is

and that's that's fine

going on autopilot is not fine

because autopilot will steer you the wrong way

sometimes it can sometimes it can be great

right right

it's just it's just stopping and

and it's like there's a way to look at

at plain old walking which is not just locomotion

it's putting one foot in front of you

to keep from falling uh huh

which is an analogy for mindlessness

I'm not being intentional about this

I'm moving my foot so I don't fall however

if I were to simply just stand in one spot

look around scan and say

now I'm gonna lift up my foot and

go that way and my center of gravity is up and down

and I'm not just keeping myself from falling

it's a completely different journey

and that's the way I like to think about

about the fatherhood journey

yeah yeah

well so let's talk a little bit about practical tools

now when fathers come to you

and trying to figure out how to raise

emotionally healthy sons what are some of the first

concrete steps that you tell them

first of all it's not really

all that different from raising emotionally healthy

girls sure

you know daughters

um but briefly

it begins with a look at authenticity

and then a kind of basically a visioning exercise

when you think about 10 years from now

how do you want your relationship with this child to be

and what kind of

other relationships are you hoping this child

will have right

and and one really important piece of that that's a

that's a that's a critical mirror

that I'll shine on some of these dads

is to say for example

um if you're partnered or married or whatever is

is your relationship with your partner

what you would hope your child will have

is the way that you express love

is the way that you express communication

is the way that you handle conflict

certainly if it's in front of those kids or that kid

are you

modeling the kind of relationship that you're hoping

for that kid if so

good on you if not

don't be a wuss do the work like

and lean into the relationship

there's so much fear and stigma about it

but like at the end of the day

like that you

you can do quite a lot with that

the other is for these fathers

um

just being highly engaged with their infants during the

just the first year of life predicts

both for boys and for girls

um really

for the research I've seen is for kids of any gender

um they have higher emotional intelligence

they are more

they have more words when they get to school

they engage in more controlled risk taking

less involvement with the juvenile justice system

and this is just being around and being hands on

now from there

I would say that fathers can play a really

really important role

both for their children by when they when

when we engage in a parenting fail

which we all do to go own it to the kid

hey when I did blank

that was the wrong thing to do

in the future going forward

I am going to do blank

and often times being able to name

and when I did that I felt ashamed anxious

worried right

you don't tell this to a three year old developmentally

they're not ready for it but what you can do is say hey

daddy was upset daddy

you know blah blah

but what you're doing is setting a family culture and

a relationship with the child that very

very very clearly includes

this man is talking about his own emotions

and is showing attunement to his young child

and trying to understand the child

and you wash rinse repeat this over time

and it's very likely to have the effect of simply

normalizing

being able to talk about feelings and emotions

like when you get dysregulated

that's one of the reasons why

having a highly involved dad

predicts children being much better emotional

regulators when they get

when they get further down that and

you know different aspects of um

kind of the

the paternal activation relationship and risk taking

and and so forth

but having a dad that will say emotions

good and bad are not emotions

and sure angry yeah frustrated

uh huh

but that's all kind of the same secondary emotion

but a dad that will go to a kid and say look

I was feeling kind of helpless

or feeling ashamed about this

and you know I was anxious

and so I know I looked angry

and and you're giving them the gift of modeling

emotions are not off the table here

you have them I have them

let's talk about what they mean

and then

they're likely to go through life with the expectation

of if I'm in a relationship

and we can't talk at that level

it's probably not gonna work for me and sure

the therapist thinks

everybody needs to talk about feelings fine

I walked into that one

and just look at the evidence space

right the guys that can't talk about their emotions

the fathers who only have conflict by like

being super confrontational and aggressive

they get divorced more yeah

they die sooner like all these things like

like and so I'm sorry to keep coming back to this

cause there's a whole contingent of

of people in particular dudes

that don't wanna hear be more emotionally available

and learn how to interact with certain important

close people in your life at that more affective

emotional relational level

and you're ultimately gonna be happier

once you get past the awkwardness

and your kids are gonna benefit hugely

yeah I've heard you

we haven't talked about this yet

during this conversation but I've heard you refer

to that kind of thing as upgrading your OS

and I think that is such a perfect way to put it and

and maybe in in terms of thinking about your job

as you wanna make sure that your son or your daughter

has a better OS than the one you have

and in doing so

you also wanna be able to upgrade your own OS

to model that for them is that a good way to put it

hundred percent yeah

I love that that that image of upgrading your own OS is

is a very powerful way to think about that

I think and it's controversial right

for folks who want to preserve a

more traditional kind of masculinity and

and fatherhood which they get to um

the prospect of an upgrade is very unwelcome

the problem is when you come back to

when you really want to understand

the most significant issues facing uh

boys and men these days

it is usually the results of the confluence of broader

societal systemic factors

and

internally Learned lessons that don't feel flexible

I have to be this kind of man why

and then you ultimately dig down to it

and you get to the existential stuff about

you know unlovability

rejection isolation

meaningless and

and you get away from well

because evolution says no

it doesn't sorry yeah

yeah you know it

it I

I feel like there's an interesting paradox at work

there and

and it's probably it

it might even be a false paradox because

you know a lot of the discourse out there

all the loudest discourses

at either ends of the spectrum

but on one side you have this

these like avid men's right types that are just

you know

absolutely completely resistant to even examining the

the possible merit of anything you're saying

and on the other side

you have these well meaning progressives

with what is essentially misandry

and it's completely unexamined for them and

and so how do you I mean

how do you navigate I'm sure that

you must see that all the time in your work and

and so I'm interested to know how you deal

with that and you know

how are we

muggles supposed to deal with that sort of thing

but with what specifically

well with this

with this paradox where you know

on on our culture seems to

to to force people to be on either one side or another

where where you have to

you almost have to be kind of

almost a men's rights types

where you don't even want to examine um

the the possibility of the truth of this or no

you wanna be a progressive that is

that is deeply feeling and

and you don't you don't even realize that

some of what you're espousing is just

not even particularly well disguised

not even particularly well disguised misandry

right uh

well I can tell you

uh for me personally

in the in the work that I do professionally

I'm not in any way trying to convert or appease

the more extremist types that are out in the tales yeah

that's that's not that being said

I'm in plenty of meetings with folks who do come a

come from a you know

significantly more conservative

or significantly more Liberal frame and

and we've got work to do and

and while I'm not gonna get on board with

with aspects

that just are not in line with the research

or the science and

and don't don't add up to me

generally speaking

I'm a kill them with kindness kind of a person yeah

like folks I mean

I always look like an idiot to the people on the left

cause I don't go far enough

and I look like an idiot to the people on the right

cause I don't go far enough

and that's fine but my guess is

the vast majority of people are probably

pretty well aligned to that

and they're not and even though they're the most vocal

people are that way

and the most online social media people are that way

the vast majority of people are kind of

run the gamut in the middle

don't you think it's it it

it is a profoundly uncontroversial statement that

in some ways men and boys struggle and suffer

and so let's figure out ways to help support them

sure in the context of power and privilege and all that

yeah but just as a test case right

folks will want to say like all men and

you know and patriarchy and and the so forth

which which has its own interesting like you

you talked about misandry

like it has its own sort of interesting frame

it's like well

a lot of times

the way that the misandry comes out is not

people saying screw men and boys yeah

it's they're not important

it's benign neglect yeah

cause this other thing is important

it's a zero something this other thing's important

right but half the population

you know slut

just under half the population

is not really that important

and so for me just coming

back with the totally to me

uncontroversial statement

that there's science

about why boys and men struggle and suffer

there is science about gender

sensitive

and informed ways to work with those men and boys

and I have an ethical obligation to go get on that

and that's what I'm doing here

it doesn't have to be everybody else's frame

but I'm I'm not looking to make converts

I'm looking for folks who honestly

probably don't think about this stuff very much

but they know a boy in their life who's struggling

they know a man in their life who's struggling

they themselves

may be that boy or man who are struggling or suffering

and they're open to they're

they're open to expanding a bit

that's who we're going for

yeah I

I think that's the perfect way to look at it

now you have two sons right

they're 21 and 18

yes looking back on your journey as a father

and now seeing them as young men

what do you think the most important thing that you did

right is

and what do you think you would do differently

I was around I had to travel

you know I did did

did did a lot of work and

and certain jobs had me on the road quite a lot

but no matter what I was

I was present with them a lot of camping

you know we would do trips and so forth

but beyond that I was there

most nights to make dinner and for us to be together

just to just to kind of

you know BS or

you know snipe at each other or whatever the thing was

but one of the aspects of it is I was there

I was involved I was engaged

far from perfect just as many

you know regrets and guilt as

as any other parent I know

and I've talked with thousands of them

yeah over the years but

but that that

and I've always I've always tried to follow and

and I think done a fairly decent job of following

the advice that I gave earlier

which is to own my mistakes and own them to my children

to go to the boys and say hey

when I I got angry

I talked with you snarkily

I just said something that if somebody else said to you

I would lose it

and it's not okay for them and it's not okay for me

and I feel embarrassed I know I looked angry

but the reality was what you did was making me worried

and that's

and so going and having that conversation with them

unfortunately repeatedly

cause

I would be enacting parent fails over and over again

yeah um

that's another element of

of what I'm what I'm proud of in my

in my fathering

that seems to have really played out with

with the two of them no

I I owe my son one of those conversations

uh today actually

cause we we walked to school and we had a

we had a problem and and uh

and it was my fault and uh

so I I will make you this commitment I'll

I will have that conversation with him today

I love it

you you use emotion words when you do

I double dog dare you

I love it I

I have two more questions

so uh

the first is a father is listening right now

who wants to break the cycle

wants to be emotionally available to his son

he wants to upgrade his own OS

and he's starting from scratch

he doesn't know where to go

what is the one thing he should do right now

this week today

in order to start on that journey

find other dads that you think are cool

and begin to develop a community of like minded dads

I think as men

I think we under estimate the importance of community

my wife has nine friends

that she shares every detail of her life with

and I have many fewer than that

and it's yeah

I mean it's not just you right like

like the onset of parenthood

certainly for men

is a well documented inflection point

where we become less healthy

we sleep less we try to get all of our emotional

support and intimacy needs met

generally by our partner

we start eating cold dino nuggets

because that's what's on the counter

when we get home from

work instead of like a salad that I'd have to make

and this

this isolation piece and the letting friendships go

I mean it's huge the I mean

the the

the Surgeon General of the US couple years back

issued an entire report just on

loneliness and social isolation

and part of that finding was that

being lonely

and experiencing unwanted social isolation

which is different than introvert recharge time

overall health effects are in terms of morbidity

mortality

about the same as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day

wow let let that sink in

so my advice to the dad that's listening question 1 Dad

are you fairly isolated sure you're around people a lot

but are you actually connecting

like do you have 2

3 other dads that that you can talk to him and be like

dude I don't know how you do this work balance thing

or like my relationships you know

kind of a nightmare over here or what do you do with

you know what's the best five point titanium reinforced

dot endorsed

you know car seat or or whatever the thing is

but often times dads will take that um

rugged individual like

independence aspect of traditional masculinity

and run with it and the problem is

they'll use that to bolster the fact

that bro dating is awkward right

if if you're used to like dropping

like you dropped your kid off today

guaranteed you were walking by some other dads with

their kids who might seem cool

they had a snarky T-shirt that you were into

or they kind of seem to have like a cool vibe going on

or whatever it is

and the prospect of going up and talking

and pulling man digits is often times so awkward

and so anxiety provoking but when you ask the dad

it's like

I just don't want to or I just don't have time for that

it's like hmm

you don't you sure you don't

cause I've seen avoidance

due to anxiety in pretty much all its forms

at this point and that's a pretty straightforward one

I invited a guy out to lunch not too long ago

about a couple weeks ago now

and I had a couple different reasons to do it

one one of one of them was a businessy kind of reason

but the other reason was

I just like him and I wanted to be friends

and I told him that I

we were sitting across from each other at lunch

I said you know

I mean the reason I wanted and I know that you don't

you and I don't know each other very well

but the reason I wanted to invite you to lunch is No. 1

I thought we might have some of these business things

but more importantly man

I think you're a cool guy and I want to be your friend

and as I was saying this I felt so uncomfortable but

then when it was done I felt great

yeah I love that you did like

it's sort of like like when I think about this

I look like developmentally

like I think about

like a second grade boy or a third grade boy

and he's on the playground and he

like breathlessly runs up to some other

some other kid and goes hey

I like you let's play and be friends

and they run off and like each other

and they play and be friends

but you know

by the by the sixth grade

it's like no

no no

no no

that's not cool it's not cool to like things or care

you know it is what it is and blow stuff off

but I love that you had

like a mandate where you were like bro

I think you're cool let's play and hang out

and like and I did

I mean my son taught it to me

my son does that all the time on the

let's be best friends and then they go off together and

and and I thought to myself

well that's the way I should be too

I mean and what a gift

if I can keep my son from having to experience that

sort of anxiety is

so when he gets to 6th grade

I want him to still feel that way

about being able to go up to people and be vulnerable

and and

and ask him to be friends with him

then I'm telling you

you modeling that and talking with him about

about what you're doing and yeah

and the behavioral and what you're thinking and

and and the emotional aspect of it

like keep it up man

I love that

I appreciate that alright

I like to close these discussions

by asking everybody the same question

and that's this what is one principle

that you like to live your life by

when it comes to raising powerful capable men

be kind

have the strength to be kind

I don't think it's more complicated than that

cause what's the opposite of that

being cruel and what what gets people to cruelty

usually they feel anxious and helpless and hopeless

but the ones that can be kind

even when it's a challenge

are enacting a kind of strength

that I would really like to see more of in the world

particularly these days and you never regret being kind

do you you regret being cruel a lot

and you're never proud of being cruel

no I mean

you might be kind to someone who throws it in your face

or or shames you

and that's the risk you're running by being kind

I'm gonna feel weak

I'm gonna feel like I got taken advantage of

there are risks to doing this

which is why I see it as courageous

and really called for for young boys to learn

this is this is a kind of strength and power

I think that is a beautiful place to end our discussion

Doctor Daniel Singly

is the founder of the center for Men's Excellence

where he's dedicated his career

to advancing men's mental health

and father inclusive Psychology

his work with Men Excel

continues to empower men to lead with strength

empathy and emotional intelligence

helping fathers everywhere

to raise the next generation of healthy

resilient young men Doctor Singley

it has been an honor to have you here today

thank you so much for your valuable time

thanks for having me

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino