like there's a lot of arrested development right

and you can think about that emotionally

physically sexually

leadership capacity socially wise

spiritually you know

undeveloped and so

we're not tending each other's growth

through a human life

that would cause us like normal health

healthy conditions

there's a vicious cycle there

isn't there right

where isolation breeds more isolation

and immaturity breeds more immaturity

hello and welcome back to raising men

my guest today is somebody

who has helped thousands of men find their community

Dan Doty has been working with boys and men

for over two decades

he was the director of the hit hunting show Meat Eater

he's one of the founders of Every Man in Fatherhood

Unlocked and works as a leadership coach to leaders

and teams all over the world

is currently building a platform to train men

to initiate each other and the next generation of boys

Dan thank you and welcome to raising men

hey Sean

glad to be here man

yeah let's get right into it

I am of the opinion that initiation rites are

tremendously important and yet

the institutions that used to do that for us

have disappeared

but you're kind of on a mission to fix that

aren't you what tell me about that

yeah I

I it might be a little bit uh

inaccurate to say I'm on a mission to fix that

uh but what I am what

what I am on a mission to do is to uh

educate and uh

sort of reframe the conversation in our culture

about what our boys need and about what our men need

like Point Blank

and part of what we need are structures

experiences communities uh

and support that can serve the same functions as what

you know traditional rites of passage would have done

so I don't I'm not on a mission to sort of

you know bring back the exact thing that we used to do

or try to implant something from 300 years ago

into the present but I do know

because I've worked with tens of

thousands of boys and men over the last two decades

um

that we that

that there is a lot that we can do as parents

as community members as family leaders

uh to set the structure

and the conditions needed for boys to be healthy

and aware and successful um

all throughout our whole life journey right

so um

I think the need is equally as strong for boys and men

I don't think it really matters what age

you know you are today

I think we're we're in need of a lot that we

that we just fundamentally don't have

and I do think you know

that losing the institutions

maybe of the church and Boy Scouts and other things um

has you know a

a part to play here but in my point of view

most of those institutions

as far back as we can look in western culture

in America like we still weren't getting

like my dad didn't have an initiation

my grandpa probably didn't right

I think it's been a long time

and that is

obviously location dependent and culture dependent

but it's something that we've lost really

mostly starting with you know

agricultural and industrial revolution times right

so we we've just been slowly eroding

the core community conditions

that we need to be healthy

for a very very long time

and I think that uh

we can do something about that

yeah and I

I think I mean

obviously that's a problem

but

I think we can view it as a really great opportunity

too right

because yeah

instead of using these traditions that

you know might be maladaptive for our modern society

we can

we get to be intentional about custom crafting the end

the the

the

uh the process for ourselves

and so what does that look like in your view

yeah well

I mean where this all started for me

I was a stupid 21 year old kid

uh who was out of college with no real plans and

and you know

no path forward and I was just

you know wandering and being an artist

and a traveler and an adventurer

and I needed some cash so I needed a job

uh and I found myself

getting a job as a wilderness therapy guide

in Utah this is 21 years ago now right

and um

and so I just I

I didn't even know this industry existed

I didn't know this job

I'd never heard of this in my entire life

but I saw an ad that said hey

do you wanna like uh

build a backpack out of sticks and Elk hide

and hike out into the wilderness for

you know 13 days at a time with a group of kids

and I'm like yeah

fuck yeah

I do like absolutely right

that sounds great actually

yeah wait you

you pay me for this I stumbled into a

a calling and a career and a path

like just as sort of a dumb kid

and I got really lucky about that

and so yeah

that's what I did for the first

you know 5 ish

six years of my career after college uh

was I I ran hundreds and hundreds

and hundreds and hundreds of days of programming

with young boys and men usually

you know average age probably 14 to 17

youngest was probably 12 oldest was in their early 20s

but um

you know

these were not called rites of passage necessarily

but they they're the closest thing in our culture um

that I've come across

that serves a real function of what traditional

rites of passage ever did right

so without knowing it

I was in the role of initiating boys

from a very young age myself

and it just it

you know I mean

there's a million stories I could tell you about it uh

but it fucking stuck right

it landed in me and it it

it lit me up to no end and here I am two decades later

later um

kind of playing out the same principles

I love that story I

I find it amazing what

what can you

what is your sense of the cost of not having

those kind of initiations

well let me back it up a little bit because

you know I

I can answer that question directly but um

traditionally there's no such thing as an initiation

without an intact community right

without a without a

like an actual core value aligned

uh community that makes sense and tells you who you are

and tells you what to do

and gives you a role and all of that right

so traditionally an initiation or rite of passage

functionally was a mechanism to

give you your place in that community

as you grew right

as you went from one chapter of life to another

the that

the formal ceremonial part of it was basically

an opportunity to push yourself

and show you that you could actually be an adult

right or show you that you could show up in this next

part of life

and it also signaled to your community that

you know you were there

and willing

and able to take on that next level of responsibility

right so to ask the question like

you know what's

what's the what's the cost of not having these

like if you really take it serious

you have to ask the you have to ask the question

what's the cost of having

not having an intact community that makes sense and

and like

a village that actually cares for

and structures and makes meaning for a boy right

so what's the cost of not having a community

I would say it's a great

large part of our modern day challenges of loneliness

and isolation and lack of identity

and lack of meaning and lack of purpose right

so if you look at the core issues that are

causing men and boys pain

like you can

there's a lot you could say but at the core of it

it's isolating a few things one is lack of connection

right purpose

you know sorry

purpose is the second one

lack of connection and isolation

basically boys and men are on islands in this

you know crazy fucking world the second is um

lack of meaning and purpose right

lack of like an understanding

and that goes down to the level of identity too right

like who the fuck am I

and what am I supposed to do with my time

what is worthwhile what does this all mean right

and um

generally speaking right

and again people could argue this potentially

but I think generally it's accurate right

in the past um

you know we live in a pluralistic society right now

so we have a million different

competing viewpoints of what it means to be a man

or what it means to be a human

or how to live our life or like

what's a good way to live all of this stuff

but in the past we had a

we had it wasn't we didn't wonder so much right

like we were just baked into a religion a crew you know

a family a tribe whatever it was

and so we didn't have to wrestle with all that shit

so right the the

the initiation and the rites of passage especially and

and I'm kind of angling uh

my conversation here around

what a lot of people think about

when they think of right of passage

they think about like adolescent to adult boy

right becoming a man right

now there's initiations and rites of passage

that happen all along your life right

ideally there's this whole sort of

arc of maturation and development in our life like

you know we're a boy

we're a preteen we're an adolescent

we're a

you know a young adult

and then we keep going we keep growing at each way

at each moment right there

at each transition point

there is a need for a community to support and Mark

and challenge you to go to the next place right

we need mentorship we need peers

we need we need challenge

we need all these things so alright

here's the answer to your question

what are we missing or what's the

what's lost by not having these

we have a

we have a society that is fundamentally full of

undeveloped and immature men

Point Blank stop and stop

like we're like there's a lot of arrested development

right and you can think about that emotionally

physically sexually

um leadership capacity

socially wise spiritually

you know undeveloped

and so we're not

tending each other's growth through a human life

that would cause us like normal health

healthy conditions

and there's a vicious cycle there

isn't there right

where isolation breeds more isolation

and immaturity breeds more immaturity

it's not like if you if if you had a rusted development

and you look around

and you see that you're different from all these

mature men that are out there

then you feel the loss of that

and you wanna go make that happen

because you have role models that

that are different than you

but if everybody's that way

then there's no incentive really there and

and now with social media and the internet

it's really easy just to find pockets

of people that

will reinforce whatever it is you're doing

even if it's bad

yeah there's

there's no unifying narrative right now right

I'm sure you're familiar with Richard Reeves work right

he's got an incredible research

crew that's just doing amazing work and

you know really just defining defining

you know the current state of masculinity is that uh

it it is

it's halted right

it's it's like boys are

boys and men are being presented with like

either a Liberal or conservative path right

be more old school or be more progressive

and there's just not that much

in terms of a healthy middle

out there right

and and

and I've been trying and and working to sort of

put out a message of that for a long time

and create you know

communities

and programming and different things to help that

but the problem is is that it's

it's a big fucking leap and it's just not that sexy to

you know um

part part of the

I think the issue with what's caused so much

I don't know um

followership by boys and men

you know

to figures like Andrew Tate or other sort of old school

masculine dudes is just that um

we haven't done a good job as adults

showing boys what a good look

life looks like right

like we we

we don't have much of a aspirational

um

you know to be a really good man and to be

you know connected and

and have an identity it's like okay

well that sounds great

but you know

is that gonna get me money

is that gonna get me a wife

is that gonna get me all this stuff

and the answer is like yeah

not necessarily you know

so yeah

yeah and so what is your strategy

how do you cultivate that in your own family

I mean in my own family

I'm just you know

humbly hard

hard at work to to show up uh

in all of the different ways

you know I've been really lucky right

so um

when I was young

I had a series of male mentors in my life

not because I was looking for them

or not because I was special or anything

but you know

I had a I had a taekwondo instructor that just like

shaped me so much as a kid

and then I had a boss on a pig farm

and then I had a college professor

and then I had a coworker

that used to climb the Himalayas

like I've had these men to look up to really

pretty much my whole life

and so I just got lucky man

and then I like I said

I stumbled into this wilderness work

when I was in my early 20s

I stumbled into a men's group when I was 26

in New York City right

so I've had a um

a really blessed lucky uh

path to kind of try to piece all this shit together

right try to piece together the traditional

masculine qualities you know

and also learn to open my heart

and be a good communicator

and be you know

soft and like

really just because I stepped in wilderness role

in that mentoring role at such

such a young age I

I just you know

this has been my core focus to help other people

but in doing that I've

you know um

I'm the No. 1 Guinea pig in the whole thing

in terms of my world right

so right

um are there

I forget what you asked but yeah

are are there

are there drawbacks to the initiation stuff

is there I mean

are there caveats to watch out for

what happens when I go wrong

well yeah

dependent yeah sure

I mean there could be really shitty initiations

there could be really shitty initiators

there could be people who are um

you know on a wrong

wrong track and there might be

you know people out there

for what I'm doing is is on the wrong track for sure

yeah um

I you know

this is the kind of stuff that can easily veer into uh

trying to imprint a certain

certain sort of values on other people or

you know um

so I think you know

for people thinking about this

whether it's for yourself

if you wanna you know

join a men's community

or men's retreat or something for your son

or get support for your family or whatever it is

you know you gotta do your fucking homework

you gotta really pay attention

to the people that you're gonna be working with

and find out what the values are

so yeah what could go wrong I mean

again there's just

it's I I

I apologize I'm

I know that I'm kind of like

complicating your questions but

but I just think there's no

there's no singular thing that we're talking about

right so like what can go wrong in initiation

like an initiation could be a thousand different things

right so the

the ones like a year ago um

I did an at adolescent uh

initiation weekend for boys who were like 12 to 14

right so boys just on the cusp of

of of

uh going through puberty

and what we did is

we had their fathers or their uncles

so a boy and an adult come in together and uh

the first night

we did a big sort of connection exercise where

you know people sort of turned toward their kid

and turned toward their dad

and had some conversations

that were a couple clicks deeper than normal

and really just kind of got the vibe going

and then what we did is the next morning at dawn

we sent the boys away in the woods for 24 hours

to go through a bunch of challenges

and had them with a couple instructors

and meanwhile

all the dads stayed around and we did a full day of

like deep men's work

you know and Learned about um

Learned about our boys

development at that stage of life

and did a bunch of um

you know really powerful stuff

and then at uh

sunrise the next morning on Sunday morning

we had this incredible ceremony uh

where we had this ridge top

where the dads were standing

and we had a bagpipe you know

cranking and then the boys

you know walked across the fields

and then we did sort of a welcoming back ceremony

um

it's fucking beautiful right

I'm playing some games and anyway

so if that is the most again

I would imagine most people thinking about this

you're thinking about initiation

rites of passage

you're thinking about boys about that age

you know about to cross over into manhood and um

that's just to put that example out there

that was you know

my attempt at offering something

for that moment in a boy's life um

that was healthy and helpful and

and meaningful right

so just to put that on the board as an example

what it could actually look like today

yeah sign me up man

I wanna do that I

I wanna do that now I

this that sounds amazing

and now what if you know I

I never had any of that I never had any real initiation

I never had any rites of passage

it's but I mean

is it too late for me what

what what

what does someone in my situation have to think about

there yeah

no um

no the good news is um

it's not too late right

I mean these

these aspects of ourselves can be initiated or

you know tended to at any

any stage of the journey

and that's actually a really good question

right because that's um

you know so I'm sitting here

you know right now

enrolling men for a six month training

to give them the tools

to be able to initiate the next generation right

so part of what my

where my two decade career is headed and

and really

what I plan to be doing for the next two decades

is to train a

a small army of men that can go out and do this

work with with people in their community right

that's that's where this is heading for me

but your question is so poignant because um

in order to to be an initiator

you damn well have better been initiated right

absolutely uh

we have the blind leading the blind and

and but

but but here's the thing

you're not alone right

so like like I got lucky and had mentors and

you know I don't know

had different

different versions of being initiated along the way

but I never had a formal initiation

I never had any kind of right of passage that was

that was you know

anything that had intention behind it so

so you are the norm this is the norm right

so and that's why there's a

you know um

you mentioned in the intro right

so I was one of the co founders and kind of really

like the creative um

I don't know like spark of a

of a organization called Every Man

and we did a very specific thing

we brought men together in order to

to model and show how to unlock

all of our repressed emotions and feelings

and actually like

be alive in in that way

it was super super effective

it was super powerful um

and you know

so there's the reason I bring that up is that

for a man to get to that place of being an initiator

or being a little like okay

I feel good about helping these boys become men

or I help I feel good about helping these men sort of

you know feel their masculinity a deeper way yeah

there's some shit you gotta do

there's some shit you gotta work on

and you don't necessarily have to master it

you don't have to like um

I don't know you know

you don't have to be Yoda before you do it

but yeah it's a practice

that's why you get better at it

it's a practice right

and that's why you know

men's groups and men's retreats and these things

they're not all explicitly aiming for that

but it is it's part of it right

there's just some general

you know some general development that I mean

there's again there's a lot of ways you can do it

you can go to therapy you can go

you know push yourself in the wilderness

you can you can kind of grow in many ways but so this

this training that I'm doing is um

full has full awareness of the fact that

you know uh

we need to help the initiators

um boost themselves

and sort of grow and broaden in our maturity uh

in order to really do this actually

there's an analogy here that I've used before

right is uh

one of my friends used the term

that we live in a clear cut culture right

clear cut meaning that if you're in a forest and

you know the

the loggers come in

and they just cut the whole thing down right

yeah and in the past

you know I don't know

hundreds of years ago and still there's pockets

but you can find old growth forest right

where there's like 200 year old trees

and those motherfuckers are massive

right and

and if you use this analogy right

we should have men in our culture

that are the old growth trees right

we should have mentors to go to

they're the ones that did the whole thing

the ones that didn't get cut down and um

although there are old growth dudes in our culture

they're hard to find

and we don't like grow up in the shade of them usually

right so

so it's kind of like our maturity level in our culture

has been kind of clear cut down

and so you know

part of what I'm doing and have been doing

but now even more explicitly attempting to

it's like alright dudes

like let's try to grow into a

a big fucking tree here so that the

you know we can institute this cycle

so the next generation can grow into big fucking trees

and on and on and on

yeah so what is that leadership program look like

you said it's six months long and

and you know what let's

let's imagine I participate now what

what is my experience gonna be

yeah so um

it starts with a four day retreat in Texas on a ranch

the first two days are uh

just like a two day men's retreat

that's open to the public

so there'll be other men there

but I'm gonna be running an initiation um

so any you know

any man at any age come in

and we'll just go through the process for um

you know two nights plus and just be guided into a real

a process to clarify like

like what's the last chapter of life that I was in

and what's the next chapter I'm heading into

and together

collectively kind of supporting everybody to

I don't know complete what needs to be completed and

you know

step into the phase of life that's actually present now

right so that's

that's a just a general overview

that'll look like going out in the woods

that'll look like challenging each other to be honest

it'll look like um

you know a

a lot of a lot of different things

and then the actual training starts

so the the men in the training

will stay for two more nights in Texas

and I'm just gonna give like

a hardcore

basic training on how to facilitate men and boys right

we're gonna start with the basics

and we're gonna train a lot uh

and then the

and then there's three months of online learning

and that's broken into like basically three

three pillars

the first pillar is becoming is facilitation skills

right

so like how do you actually step in and facilitate

the second layer is um

like the anatomy of initiation

the anatomy of rite of passage

like what does it actually include

what are the conditions that need to be set

uh what does it look like

and then the third layer is male development

from birth to death right

like what are the phases of life

uh and what are the transition points

um along there that

that need attention and initiation and

and support right

and then you put those three layers together

you're gonna learn how to facilitate

you're gonna learn like

the backdrop of a man's life

and how progression happens

and then how to set the conditions

to help men through each phase of life

uh and then the

um I'm gonna teach a lot of that through case studies

right

so I've worked with thousands of dudes of all ages

and I come in like here was a 16 year old who was

you know suicidal and didn't believe in himself

and here he is three years later thriving in a

like a major top 10 school

like what happened how did you do that right

here's a 51 year old who just had uh

his second family um

and had a new son

and wanted to do life completely different

and here he is now 12 months later

just like fucking thriving

like what was the right of passage

what was the process so anyway

we're gonna look at a lot of parts of life

um

and then there's a second retreat in Colorado in may

and that's gonna be in the mountains

and we're just gonna kind of

do a workshop where everybody in the training is gonna

lead some stuff and get some feedback

and guide some things sorry

this is long but the last part is a um

it's a three month practicum

where everybody's gonna choose a project

whether it's to start a men's group

or lead an initiation for their son

or blah blah

you know whatever fits for them

that's the training that's what we're doing

and I wanna do this for the next 20 years of my life

yeah tell me about and now I I

I know I see how you became passionate about this

you sort of lucked into it right

you were you rather aimless um

and and you

you lucked into

figuring out that this was so impactful for you

and you wanna bring that to the rest of the world

how has this kind of practice and this mentality and

and and this work that you've been doing

over the last 20 years you know

how has it how how is it redound to your own benefit

you know what are you

how is it benefited you personally

yeah I guess the first thing I would say is

is I know who I am and I have for a long time

I haven't been walking around wondering

you know

who I am actually and what I'm supposed to do right

like I think it's funny sometimes I complain about the

the weight of having such a clear mission right

it's a lot um

it's a lot to hold you know

sometimes those Jesus could I have just been a

a corporate dude and not cared so much

you know just go to work every day

9 to 5 and go home at the end of the day yeah

no I've been lit on fire for

with this for for a very long time

and you know

I think maybe one of the major benefits is that um

the men in my life my closest friends

my colleagues like um

we fucking know each other and see each other

there's no there's no holding back

there's no hiding you know

I don't have any half ass friendships

I don't have any places where I have to hold myself

back

you know it's helped me as a father insanely right

like I there is just sort of a

I mean I do plenty of things wrong as a dad

just like everybody does there's

there's no fucking no pedestal here

however I know

I know how to be present with my kids without any

without any stress right

like there's there's

there's an ease of general human relating

um that has come from all of this practice

you know and um

and I think the last thing I would say is

you know I think

and I think this is an important topic too is

is sort of like

the integration of traditional masculinity and um

you know more heart based uh

ways of being I

I I believe that I kind of stumbled into that as well

right like I grew up playing

I was a football captain and I

you know

and I have guns and I've been a lifelong hunter and the

you know I'm a wilderness guide

and so like

there's this hardcore old school

masculine aspect that's a very clear part of who I am

and uh

you know I've uh

I think

one way to talk about my professional life is that uh

men cry around me all the time

you know so like there's a

there's a

there's a part of your job is getting men to cry

it's part of my job yeah

yeah it's really needed

so so all of that said

you know I think that there's a

I have a great sort of freedom in

in just being who I am

I I had a guest um

Doctor Dan Singley is his name

and I know Dan he's awesome

yeah oh yeah

yeah and he uh

he said that one of the most courageous things

a man can do is to step out of the man box

okay and that's what

that takes real strength

and so we have this kind of idea of masculinity

of this strength of this stoicism or

or whatever it is and

and it even takes it it takes more strength than that

to step out of that role

and to let your vulnerability show

and to allow yourself to um

to to to cry or to open up or to be honest

as opposed to having the facade there all the time

and that's really God's work

I think in terms of of trying to cultivate more of that

it is it is definitely sadly lacking

and it's it's hard to find good examples of it

you you

you mentioned you kind of

touched on the fact that a lot of the simplistic views

around masculinity in our culture today

revolve around those two extremes

of either the the one extreme

which sort of embracing toxicity and being an asshole

oh being a man is just being a jerk

versus on the whole other side

it's oh no

no no

masculinity is bad by its very nature

and we should suppress it

well neither of those things are healthy

neither of those things lead to a healthy community

and the thing that does lead to a healthy community

is having a healthy vision of masculinity

that cultivates our instincts

and what is good about our instincts

I think that you nailed it

yeah I

I think you I think you really nailed it

I think that's really important right

so in everything that I do

in all of the work that I do

the first premise

the absolute first premise that has to be said is that

um at our core

I mean I could say

I said I believe this about humans

it doesn't matter what gender

whatever the fuck but at our core

men are good they're fundamentally basically good

underneath everything if you get

if you get under all the conditioning and all of the

everything possible there's just a

there's a fundamental goodness

and the uh

the limits that our culture and our families

and just how we're raised

put on what a man fundamentally is

it's it's just the deep

the longer I do this the more mind boggling it gets

right it's just like the the

the incredible capacities we all have

in every direction you know

both

to be tougher than we ever think we could have been

but also to be more compassionate than

than we've ever been shown how to do right

like how to be more creative

how to be more emotionally connected

how to be more spiritually attuned

all of these things like

we have insane capacity in like

a million directions as men right

but like you said that Man Box is it's

it's a it's a fucking prison

I've been

I've been kicking the shit out of that box for

two decades right and

and being like hey

we need a new fucking box right

let's let's make a bigger box because this sucks

and we can like if

how can we not

see how much harm it's doing to ourselves and

and to other people around

like it's just everywhere all the time right

like we gotta break out of that shit

you know and I think I

think it's happening you know

it's messy it's chaotic

you know people it

and it's hard to I think it's also hard to uh

replace that box with something that says

simple and understandable too right

it's like you know

it's

we want to just our minds want to put things in boxes

and yeah yeah

there's nuance there

that there's less and less of a tolerance for yeah

I totally agree yeah

now I like to I like to finish up by asking uh

more or less the same question to everybody and put

I'm gonna so I'm gonna put you on the spot here

but what

if you could leave every parent listening here

with one guiding principle

for Raising Sons of excellence what would that be

yeah it's a great question

I so I have a course called Raising Strong Boys

and this is you know

that's the whole point of it

and I have like four or five pillars in there

but I'll I'll

I'll just I'll follow our

our conversation here the tone of this conversation and

um

I'm gonna I'm gonna set it up as kind of a paradox or a

or a dichotomy and both are just

I think we need to uh

we need to model and show our boys how to be much

much softer and what I mean

in softer is compassionate and connected

able to give and receive love

able to give and receive affection

and at the same time we need to toughen them up right

like they like they they

they need to be um

not coddled and you know

not uh

overserved

and they need to know what responsibility feels like

and they need to be pushed past their limits

you know and so I can't

in good faith just say it's one or the other right

maybe for for whatever parent listening is

you know think about where you're naturally strong

right maybe you're a

you know maybe you're an old school dude and you're

you know getting after it in the woods with your kid

and he's tough as nail then I would say

well you're

then you probably need to put some more

attention in the other direction

and if you're if you're good at the lovey dovey stuff

then you probably need to

you know kick your boy's butt a little bit more um

but I think thinking of it in that in those terms that

um that

that it one without the other isn't okay

you know

yeah there's a tension

it has to be and yeah

you need to manage that tension as with everything

almost almost anytime you find yourself thinking

oh no it's always this way

there's all there's there's usually an opposite of that

and there's a tension there

and if and you seek

you gotta seek the balance in the tension

well let me give you one more thought

one way to do that in a practical way is

and this this is a simple one is to um

make it your a primary

responsibility to make sure that your boys are

spending time with healthy

mature adult men uh

and and

and like a a spectrum of them right

a spectrum of them so that give them or men that have

examples yeah

or or men that

that already hold both of those capacities

right like

so my closest buddies are like

well you interviewed Aaron right

so Aaron is the uh

Special Forces retired Special Forces

as tough as anybody I've ever known

but also as warm and loving as anybody I know right

so absolutely

just make sure your boys are in touch with mature men

yeah that is fantastic

that is a fantastic principle

fantastic advice thank you so much

where can we learn more about your leadership program

and what you're up to today

yeah dan .y.com

that's that's where it's all at

and the link the link for that is in the show notes Dan

I can't tell you how much

I appreciate you taking the time today

um thank you for sharing your journey with us

and thank you for uh

sharing your leadership program

I'm really excited

it's for everybody to learn more about that

and uh

thanks again for being part of Raising Men

thanks Sean

appreciate it and remember you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino