Welcome back to Raising Men.
I'm here once again with Dr.
Samuel.
Dr.
Samuel, welcome back to Raising Men.
It's good to see you.
Glad to be back.
I so what I'd like to do for this little discussion is I'd like to talk to you about ~ you
know, you're a conflict specialist.
And you know, when I was when my boy was young, we were at it felt like we were at each
other's throats all the time.
And by the time he turned about five or six, that mostly went away.
And we get along just amazingly well right now.
But my daughter.
Who is currently four, we are in that loggerhead stage.
And I would love to present to you some of what's going on, some of our kind of recurring
issues, and let you know what the issue is, how I'm handling it and how we're handling it,
and then just get your feedback on that, how to think about that stuff and and and what we
should think how how we should think about
dealing with those kinds of issues.
How's that sound?
That sounds great.
All right.
So here's the scenario.
so my daughter is four years old, and she's very strong willed, which I love this about
her.
She is just she's gonna make her own way in the world, and most of the time she seems to
think that her own way in the world is the opposite of whatever it is that you want her to
do.
And that
I love that reflex in her.
She's gonna be, she's not gonna be led around by the nose.
No, sir.
She is going to she's gonna do her own thing, and that's great.
But of course, that leads to conflict.
and it starts typically around dinner time.
So we'll tip you know, we'll sit down and we'll be eating dinner.
And she'll kind of get distracted about halfway through dinner, and she starts to get we
call them the wormies.
she just gets like like it's like or or like sugar worms.
Like after she's eaten
sugar, she kind of goes crazy a little bit.
And we don't give her that much sugar.
So it's not that, but she definitely does get a little bit manic during dinner.
And so it'll be, you know, we'll kind of gently urge her to continue to eat her dinner.
Okay, we need you to finish dinner.
And if you're finished eating dinner, then let's go ahead and clean up our plates and get
back upstairs.
Yeah, or get upstairs and start start getting ready for bed.
And she'll stay manic for that time through dinner, and then we'll get her, you know, that
she'll eventually clean up her plate and finish dinner and do all that stuff, and then
she'll go upstairs and start getting ready for bed.
And that's when the mania turns into it sours into something a lot more awful.
And she starts to get very she so the prototypical story is she she gets a book read to
her when it's time to go to sleep.
And it's the last thing we do, or actually it's the second to last thing we do.
we read a book and then we sing a song.
And if
The way that the rule works is if it has taken too long to get to get ready for bed and
that has been a frustrating experience, then she's
gonna lose the book.
And we warn her about that many, many times, like several times.
Usually it's three times.
So, hey, babe, you know, we need to get going here so that we have time to to read our
book.
Let's, you know, can I I need you to finish getting your pajamas on.
And
She doesn't want to lose the book, but she doesn't seem to care until after she gets the
book taken away.
And then once she gets the book taken away, it's like it's the most important thing in the
entire world.
And she'll die without having had a book read to her.
And she will, she will get very, she'll scream and yell.
She will she will throw a total tantrum.
And of course, once we've taken the book away, we can't give it back to her.
and then, you know, it's it's it's very difficult to get her to, you know, kind of calm
down and agree to to to get in the bed.
And this happens maybe about sixty or seventy percent of nights.
So that's the whole story.
What do you what what do you think about that?
Ask any questions that you have.
Yeah.
So the first thing that I think is useful to say when we're talking about the
four-year-olds is as she's emerging out of toddlerhood, just to kind of normalize some
these dynamics from the start for parents, that
you know, the the two things that is are universal about toddlers is one that what I said
last time last time about them wanting to be helpful and involved, but the second one is
that they have temper tantrums and she's merging out of the toddlerhood, but toddlers
Toddlehood temper tantrums are universal, and we always have to remind ourselves of this.
It's not bad parenting, it is universal across cultures.
They have temper tantrums with their brain development.
You take away the book or you take away certain things, and there's sometimes gonna be
huge meltdowns.
And even if you try to get it all right and give them this versus give them that, there
might be huge meltdowns.
So we have to, you know, from the start, normalize that as
as that part of it is not bad parenting and that you are the adult, I am the adult.
So our ability to stay as grounded as we can through it is is huge.
And I think in terms of just like the initial like, okay, I'm staying grounded.
I'm expecting that she's gonna fall apart.
Some let's look at
Which I know you know that in your bones because you just raised the two three year old
and and two two three year olds, right?
But now you're
seeing her four, you're hoping for more from her.
the question that I have for you about whether this this book aspect is more just about
having something removed or about more attention based is does she not want to like sleep
in her bed alone, those other aspects or
what is the attention component to this?
Yeah, that's an excellent question.
so she shares a room with her older brother, but she goes to bed earlier than he does.
And part of I mean, she just needs more sleep than he does.
He sleeps, she sleeps later than he does, typically, even though she goes to bed earlier.
So she'll go to bed.
we'll we'll start the bedtime routine for her about 6:30.
she's typically in bed.
even modulo temper tantrums, she'll pretty much be in bed by 7 15.
and then she'll be asleep by 7 30.
And her brother, meanwhile, starts his bedroom bedtime routine around seven.
And when he gets to that, it takes him five minutes.
And then he just hangs out in my bed, just kind of reading
And or listening to audiobooks or or or that kind of thing to wind down.
And then once she's asleep, he'll go in and they they have bunk beds and so he'll go in
and and lay down on his bed.
But but but if he if he's in there while she's going to sleep, especially if he's like
listening to his audiobook or something, which makes noise, but if even if he's just in
there, she won't go to sleep.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And it's not that there is this perfect equation to it, but it it's always interesting to
know if the the book is more about that I want dad or I want mom here longer or if the
book is just about the book.
and to what extent it is one or the other.
I'll take a little detour though for us to look at the more of a campground or even
hunter-gatherer society in terms of all everybody going to bed.
And we can just even picture it though in the modern day in terms of, for example, we've
sent kids and teenagers who are struggling with being too much on technology and other
things out to go out to their camp to go to bed.
And what happens in the campground is that so
So first that you have the lighting going down for everybody because it's going down on
the outside.
And if they don't have other types
of things, they're just their their bodies are reacting to the light going down on the
outside, the natural lighting, and their bodies are responding a little bit more to that.
They also are all going to bed around the same time.
So it's more just like a communal, like everybody's going to sleep now.
So that's happening as well.
And there's sort of a response happening.
There.
So I so one as a kind of like a detour, not a solution to the specific book, is just
looking at like, okay, what features are working against that in this household in terms
of winding down for bed at a 6:30 time?
The lighting outdoors makes a huge difference, and a lot of parents
will notice that in terms of the daylight savings time.
But we can also do this with our own internal lighting in the house, bringing it down
gradually enough.
notch so that way it it kind of mirrors that with other other environmental effects that
signal it.
If everybody were to go to bed with her, it probably wouldn't work better, but it doesn't
work out in many households for many reasons.
We have times, we have situations.
Yep, I don't want to go to bed at 6 30 either.
You
you want to, yes, go to bed at 6 30.
And and so this is another dilemma that we're up against.
And so I think it's
~ some of some of those some of those those are some of the environmental barriers.
going back to the attention one, it's hard to tell, right?
Like if this is a protest about attention or missing out and does she use any words that
communicate something like that?
It doesn't feel ~ it doesn't feel like an attention grab.
because you know, she still is getting her song.
She's still getting, you know, we call it the hug smooch scratch it which is the last
thing we do.
And she's still I mean, she's still getting she's got a lot of one on one w with a parent
at during this time.
And so it it it
I don't get the feel like she's just angling for more time with with mom or dad.
I I don't get that.
you're winding down together.
It's just
taking closer to like an hour or forty five minutes and also she's very pushing back the
entire time.
Yeah.
fact, it's gonna take the same amount of time either way.
It's just going
to be unpleasant if we're pretty much like, Okay, that's it's seven fifteen.
I gotta I gotta leave now.
And whether or not we're done with the song, whether or not we're done with the with the
book.
Okay.
And then after that does she just ~ lay there or is that when she's and does her own thing
or?
Eventually, yes.
she will I mean, you know, sometimes she's just in the middle of throwing a tantrum and
will you know, whoever is doing the bedtime routine will just leave and close the door.
Yeah.
I mean, especially since that situation can get it's a it's the end of the day for me too,
man.
And and so I'm very low on patience.
And
Mm-hmm.
and and so ~ and the last thing I want to be doing is acting like a four year old myself.
and that
is what's gonna happen.
I'm gonna I'm gonna blow up and start screaming.
Mhm.
The other thing we could try is we could try, during the bedtime routine, staying with her
while she's actively working on going to sleep.
But if there's like tremendous pushback from it, then saying ~ Okay, I'm gonna step out a
bit now, but
I'm, willing to come back and keep trying if you're ~ cooperating some with the bedtime
routine and to show that like if it's it depends.
Like I recommend that when there's already such a secure basis that it's not really
affecting like the security of the relationship.
It's not really an attention thing.
Yeah.
No.
the only the
only way you're gonna get to spend time with me if you're behaving.
And we worry about that.
Right, right.
And I I do.
I and I do as well.
I think it's ~ yeah, depending on the security of the attachment, how much time people are
spending together, how much time she was with a babysitter during the day versus with the
parents all day, all play into factors in terms of like yeah, engaging more when she's
cooperating versus not.
high so the the high
Notice though, and this is really hard, I think, for us to notice internally for
ourselves, are there things that you or I are doing that are reinforcing the cycle?
And so one of the things that I might be doing that could reinforce the cycle is that I'm
doing something other than like laying calmly and breathing, even while they're
really heightened and so sometimes, you know, if I e despite the tremendous pushback going
on, if I drop it and lay calmly and breathing eventually the I'll see a quicker shift.
It's not guaranteed though.
There could be pushback.
I think
I this is that is that is a really, really, really great suggestion.
And because one
of the things, one of the dynamics that happens, and I I do think that there is kind of a
attachment security issue here, because one of the things that happens is she'll get
overwhelming and then we'll have to leave the room.
Otherwise it's gonna get really ugly.
And and so it almost becomes
Leaving the room is a punishment for for the behavior.
And and I I mean that is that is a that is a pattern.
It's not all
the time, but I mean it's it she feels like kind of a recipe for an anxious attachment.
And but if if I stay in the room in that circumstance, like I'm I'm starting to I'm
starting to well up or I'm starting to like ~ feel the anger.
increase.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
And instead, I can just close my eyes.
I'll stay physically there, but I am not engaging with the behavior.
Maybe I just like, you know, my hand's there, like I'll put it on her leg or something
like that, and it's just available to her.
I'm available to her in the circumstance.
I mean, I'm physically available regardless, but I'm not really necessarily engaging with
her behavior until it's until I'm regulated.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes yes.
go ahead.
Yeah, I think sometimes that we forget that the most powerful part of the bedtime routine
is us modeling sleeping itself, perhaps.
Of just like so and and this this could even be something where it's like we we did
before, we we had this routine that was we did the books and we did the songs and we had
all of these ideas which were fine and they were nice when we were having a great time,
but now we're not having a great time anymore.
And now it's like we're almost shifting the bedtime routine to
I am, you know, like I'm doing this and that just for the routine, but then I'm shifting
to like trying to sleep in your bed for a little while and seeing if I can or sleep over
there and I'm trying to breathe through it, seeing if we can be peaceful enough that ~
that eventually it's ca it sort of like catches on like this is what we're doing.
Because some of it as well might literally be the avoidance of
~ trying to sleep itself and the missing out that happens.
Mm-hmm.
of that.
She hates sleeping.
She hates it.
~
and and I I mean I think she feels, yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I think she feels like there's all this cool stuff happening in the in the house ~ and
while she's asleep.
And there's not, by the way.
Like and so I yeah, I mean, maybe maybe just like lying down and going to sleep with her.
there requests like, I want some more food, I wanna go do this, I wanna go do that.
Are there requests?
Okay, they're requests, sure.
Yeah.
These are those are not those requests in my mind are not I don't view those through an
intention lens.
I view those through a lens of yes, fear of missing out, it's like I don't I don't wanna
do this.
This is boring.
~ mm-hmm.
So
Dad is gonna maybe
Maybe do the same, but maybe try to go to sleep and see what happens and
so all right.
So here are the here's what I'm gonna try.
~ so here's my commitment to you
Totally.
is I'm going to endeavor to stay in the room, ~ no matter what.
And so even if she throws the tantrum and goes insane, what I consider to be insane, ~ I'm
I'm just gonna I'm I'm just gonna stay there.
And I in fact, what I'll what I can do is model the
the calming routines like finger breathing and that sort of thing.
I'll just I'll just I'll just make I'll just calm myself in her presence as opposed to
calm myself by leaving the room so that there's not that punishment specter there.
And then and then I will at I guess seven fifteen when it's you know definitely time or
seven or seven fifteen.
Well
I'll just lay down with her until seven thirty.
And then at seven thirty, I I that's when I that's when I get up.
And so she wants to lay down with me for that time.
Or, you know, the extent to which she wants to lay down with me at that time, that's
great.
And if she doesn't, then you know, that's what she wants to do.
And then at seven and then I still leave at that exact time.
Yeah, I'm I am worried about her trying to angle for more time by whatever.
And I feel like I need to have that time boxed back end.
Fair.
One last one.
I don't know if you ever see her during the day, but I would try with her during the day,
doing an act out of the bedtime routine, ~ having her be the parent and potentially
involving stuffed animals and t try to yeah, see if like during the day
she can kind of walk it through.
also if you're feeling
it like she's not listening to your bedtime routine.
Since she still is four, since she's not, you know, closer to eight, the the stuffed
animals too could work where it's like you're kind of telling them to do it and you're
doing it with them.
You're sort of interacting.
See if the fear of missing out can kinda go the other way.
She's afraid of missing out downstairs, but sometimes they're afraid of missing out with
you and the stuffed animals.
not participating
in this bedtime routine that I'm doing with the stuffed animals.
And so yeah, I hear ya.
Yeah.
yes.
And they're just right at that point where she can also do the practicing being the parent
during the day as well to see what it's like.
and she might gain something from that too.
But all in all, even through all of this, we have to remember that the routines are trying
to mimic
what in ancient societies was just a routine about nature and didn't include many of the
different steps that we do.
So really we're just trying to model sleeping.
And since we're not co sleeping and not all going to bed at the same time because we all
have different schedules and times, then other ways of modeling sleeping could potentially
bring her closer.
Mm-hmm.
like that I like that lens.
That's a that's a really, really helpful lens.
Yes, and good to see.
an absolute delight for me and so and so helpful.
I I will report back to you and let you know how it goes.
Yes, report back whether whether positive or negative.
I like a good challenge.
Yeah,
no, I love it.
Yeah.
If ~ yeah, i one one way or another you'll you'll hear from me ~ about how it goes.
If it ~ if it doesn't go well, we might have to have another session.
Percent?
Sounds great.
All right.
again, Dr.
Samuel, thank you for joining me.
And thank you for listening to Raising Men.
You are a great parent.
