let's imagine you're right
and the world is out to get you
and you have enemies that are
putting these obstacles in your way
focusing on those obstacles
is letting those enemies win
if there's an obstacle in your way
well then just run through it
and if you must ask a question
frame it differently what is this trying to teach
what am I learning right now
what else can I compare this to
when I started as a beginner
that feels like this feels as terrible as it is
as painful as it is what am I becoming
that's a question you can ask
that still has the curiosity
but no negativity in it
welcome back to raising men
now today on the Raising Men podcast
we're joined by James Bullard
James is a storyteller a performer
and a coach
who helps people see themselves more clearly
and get out of their own way
he's the host of the Radical Joy podcast
now in its fourth season
and he took that message to Ted X
in Amsterdam last year
his big idea is that joy isn't a mood that you wait for
passively it's something that you practice
even if it's gonna make you feel a little silly
James welcome to raising men
thank you Sean
I'm really happy to be here
with you today you know
this message is uh
so welcome to me I
through various parts of my life
I have needed what you're pushing so desperately I
I I
I'm um it
it surprises people to hear that I'm an introvert um
naturally and because it
it I don't
I don't show the signs
the normal signs of being an introvert
but that related to that is the fact that I
I mean I feel buttoned up
I feel like
I would love to just go hide in a corner all the time
and but I recognize that boy I
I I will not get anything I want if I do that
and so I would just love to
you know talk to me about radical joy
you and I mean
how did this come about
and what are your thoughts about that
sure uh
it's I've always been like
I kind of stick out
I was born and raised in rural Alabama
and I was a very very happy child
I had a fantastic childhood
amazing parents and um
because I was just superfluously happy all the time
it kind of stuck out and um
it really was yeah
you know that's
I just gotta put a pin on that for a moment
that is really remarkable
and it's kind of like what a shame it is like
like the happy kid is the one that seems weird
that's something that we should think about
well then
add to the fact that I was the boy kid
like if you got little girls that are hopping
and skipping around nobody thinks twice about it
oh that's delightful
whenever you got a little boy doing that
well this is problematic
we should probably get a handle on that pretty quickly
unfortunately for them unfortunately for me
it just never quite worked out that way
I went to school in Alabama
pretty soon made my way out into the wide world
lived in New York for years as a singer and performer
and loved it for the last decade
I sang with this incredible group of men called oh
what a night
and it's a Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons tribute
and we would tour internationally with that
and then in 2024 I moved to the Netherlands
it's a small town called Anai Megan
which is about 90 minutes outside of Amsterdam
and I've been living here ever since
and it's been an absolutely incredible experience
through each one of these that stand out
that thing that made me quote unquote
weird
was the thing that made it so easy to do these things
there are challenges all along the way
make no mistake
but as far as the bravery to just sort of like
go ahead and make the jump
and being confident
that you're gonna land someplace safe
you just did it and I did
it's been wonderful
you know when I
if I inspect what you're saying there
what what really
what that brings in high relief for me
is that the obstacle to joy in this con
construct that you've that you've got here
is your own feeling of
needing to be certain of the outcome
like it's almost like I feel like I'm not
I'm not going to allow myself to be happy
unless I know that
doing that is going to yield positive results for me
a specific positive results
and I'm not going to get shamed for it
and I'm not going to have any of the bad stuff
that I'm afraid of
and you're kind of turning that on its head
you're saying dude
that's preventing you
from feeling joy in the first place
just go out and feel it and the great stuff will accrue
yes well
and the fact that control is an illusion certainty
you never have that and if you do
you don't get to keep it for very long
and that's not something to be afraid of
it's not something to have any sort of
apprehension about you just have to know that
and hold it loosely in your heart
whenever you got and do these things
control is not something I get to hold for very long
for this amount of time
I know that I have a certain amount of influence
everything outside that
I've just got to be confident in the fact that
what I'm doing for my own happiness
and for that of those around me
is going to be enough to keep me safe
and on an upward trajectory
so why do you think I have my own thoughts about this
which I share in a moment
but but
why do you think grown men find it
so difficult to show joy
for one thing it's
it playing it cool is almost always the default
especially among American men
there are so few things you get to do
that are socially acceptable
that grown
uh emotionally mature human beings get to do
as part of being a human being hugging
touching non sexually
like just communicating clearly what you're feeling
when you're feeling it
you and I talked a little bit before
like the two emotions that men get to show the most
are usually horny
and angry and anything else is sort of looked on as um
it's looked down upon only for the fact that also
it seems to be feminized
and emotions are human
they're not necessarily man or woman
there's an enormous spectrum of emotion
that we are all privy to experiencing
it's just that we have been culturally
wired to think that only a very
narrow spectrum of that is acceptable among men
yeah I
I think that a lot of men
I I mean
myself included
are afraid that what that does is open the floodgates
and it will come out in ways that aren't healthy
and that aren't controllable
and I I mean
I suspect everybody all humans deal with
with that it's just that in our culture
women seem to have like more healthy outlets
and and men just don't
we don't talk about things amongst ourselves
we don't have close
many men don't have any close friends
that they feel they can open up to
I've told the story many times on this podcast of
of situations where I have
I do have really close friends
and it if I finally realized that oh
I'm not sharing some really important stuff with them
and they're not sharing really important stuff with me
either we're just we're just doing this stuff alone
and you're surfacing yeah
I think it's because we're afraid
it's like a pressure continues to build
that is just gonna explode if we open the valve at all
and and why why wouldn't it
why would we not expect that to explode
we've been containing that for decades since childhood
just about the time that we started to blossom
into manhood
I'm gonna go ahead and make that pretty little picture
for us people
continue to put more and more weight on top of it
if you start to exhibit
more than just this very narrow spectrum of emotion
they expect you to bottle it up
to hide that light under a bushel
and like you're saying we worry about that explosion
but we shouldn't not expect it
because it's been under so much pressure for so long
even the
the smallest amount of release of that pressure
could be explosive
the best news is
once we release that initial burst of that pressure
we learn how to regulate that a lot more effectively
and we can live in a much broader spectrum of emotion
and it's it's so rewarding to do the work
and to risk that moment of danger
just so you can get on the other side of it
and start living more fully
yeah and
I mean I
I love your story about getting the light in your eyes
about when you were a kid
you were the weird one
because you were so happy all the time
and somehow I
I feel like the world comes to douse that fire
right the world just tries to pour water on it often
and especially
like your parents or the school or all of these things
how did you avoid getting that
extinguished like that
and what lesson does that have for
you know keeping it alive in our own voice
I was really lucky to have a very caring family life
my mom was very protective of that flame
that you're describing
yeah she was very nurturing of it
because she saw and she knew
she knew it was gonna be tough
I was also an only child so she really was
she ready to take up arms against the world
because it was just me that she
had to protect dad was a full grown man
he could do his own thing
and it was really great that she was able to do that
for me I did a lot of um
like travel and exchange
not necessarily international when I was much younger
schools and we would go to like band competitions or uh
quiz bowl competitions
where you got to meet more kinds of people
people
who were just a little bit different than yourself
so that started to sort of
broaden and understand
that there were other kinds of people in the world
then when I hit university age and older
I started traveling internationally
and that's when things really started to break open
you're like
the more you see how the rest of the world does it
the more you understand that
there are so many other ways to do it
especially here in Europe
there is a very open
way of showing emotion and closeness
especially among men
that is not the same in the United States
and that takes a little getting used to
just ideas of personal space
and what is and is not acceptable
for showing affection among men
yeah it
it just takes some getting used to
and what you do
you understand why things are so much healthier
feeling here because there is a lot more
emotion that's able to be expressed
both verbally and through physical touch or proximity
it's just a whole other ball game
I I remember early on
um
my son was about I don't know
maybe two very young and um
and he came like he he came and gave his mom a kiss
and then he came to give me a kiss on the lips
and I turned my cheek and he
and he and he kissed my cheek and um
and my wife said to me she said
uh why you turn your cheek just then
and I said men don't kiss each other on the lips
and she goes she just looked at me and she said huh
and then that was the end of the discussion
but it it
it was like a you know
like a popcorn kernel stuck in my teeth um
and I I thought about it for a while and I was like
how insane is that
that I have been culturally conditioned to suppress
showing love to my son
because of what like he's like
it's gay or what what
what is it
what is it in myself that is suppressing that
yeah
and how insane is that that I'm allowing that to happen
and I came back a couple of days later and I
and I I said to her
I said you know
I've been thinking a lot about this
and I think that's crazy and I'm gonna turn around and
and I'm I'm
I'm not gonna let that like I feel a
tremendous amount of love for that boy
yeah and
and yet
I have this cultural conditioning that prevented me
from it's not only prevented me from demonstrating it
it the
the prevention from demonstrating
it actually prevents you from feeling it
there's a feedback mechanism
and I think that's the same way with joy
I think I
I I it
it if you suppress allowing yourself to express the joy
you are suppressing allowing yourself to feel the joy
and that is a tragedy
joy like so many other things
I like to think about it like a muscle
if you train it it grows
it gets stronger it gets more flexible
it can do so much more with you and for you
yeah if you don't use it
if you actively refrain from using it
for whatever reason it will atrophy
it will get weaker
and eventually you may not be able to use it at all
it takes a lot to get something like that back
whenever you've not lost it
you have stored it
and sometimes you forget how to access that again
I never wanna be there
and what you're describing about your son as well
that is such a touching story that it
that it made such a difference to you
and for anyone listening that might be in a position
on the cusp of an experience like that
that child sees it yeah
that child knows it because it did one thing with mom
that dad didn't and why is that
and the conditioning starts as early as that
because even though they don't have words
actions are their communication
and they know something is different
and then they have to take the context of it
to put those pieces together
and there is a confusion that may linger for years
to follow
yeah I
you know a
a lot some of your coaching is built on
on um
helping people update their truth as
as you call it I think
and which means to see themselves more clearly and to
like make a realization that oh
I have patterns that are not serving me
you know and I can do something about that
it's not these are not preordained patterns I
I can have whatever patterns I want
yes and even just taking that recognition out um
it is I think
a really really important step
and so I mean what
like what outdated stories
and what outdated data
stories do you see in your coaching work
that you see most often in men
and then how do they how
what triggers them to update it
I see men who are continuing to operate on a dream
they had 20 years ago
hmm
and I I
I have no problem with something like that
it like everything
it depends on the context
it depends on what they're dealing with
however you
20 years is a long time to hold on to something
and not get there
there's a lot of life that happens in two decades
of years so
what we do first is
we just look at exactly what they're dealing with now
and wondering why that thing that they
decided on 20 years ago is still relevant today
if it is great
we continue to build on it and work toward it
and make systems
so that we can make that dream a reality
99 times out of 100 it's just
because they hadn't put any more thought
into what their dream looks like
in the last 20 years yeah
and we take a closer look at that as like okay
you know here's the thing
letting go of an outdated dream is not failure
it's looking
how much you've changed
in the time since you made that dream
to who you are today and redefining what that is
what do you want now
today that you are the father of two children
that you are the loving husband of one wife
that you are living in this part of the world
that you are driving this vehicle
or going to this work every day
with those ideas in mind
what does your dream today look like
and you would be stunned to know
how few men can answer that
in the first five minutes of conversation
I'm I I don't think I would be hahaha
I feel like in your line of work
I bet you know yeah
yeah I
you know
there's a there's another side to that coin too
which is
updating the kind of burdens you carry
I have a friend who's very bitter about
you know their
his life just hasn't really turned out well and and
and he's he
in my view um
got into a number of mental patterns
that were destructive to his life
you know they were destructive to his relationships
and his marriage and a bunch of things
and as a
what I considered to be a predictable result of that
his life started to spiral downward
and
but he was so focused on the grievance of these things
maybe even manufactured grievance
of stuff that happened in his childhood
or years and years and years ago
that he couldn't let it go
and he actually like
kind of reframed stuff that happened in the past
to manufacture even more grievance
and that became this pattern where
and then he would as a result
it colored the way that he looked at the world
the world is now this horrible place
that's just out to screw him over
and everything everybody does
there's an angle to it that is out to screw him over
in turn colors the way that he interacts with people
and makes that a self fulfilling prophecy
and so that's kind of like
that's a really
really sort of pernicious version of not updating
your priors
you you mentioned not updating your priors in terms of
well what do I want out of life what's my goal
what's the vision at the top of the mountain
there's another version of updating your priors
which is what's holding me back
what are what are the things I'm holding on to
that maybe I don't need to be holding on to anymore
and just like move on yes
and the the thing I'm always nervous about
whenever I face both of those questions
I love to focus on the goal
so much more than the obstacle
because the obstacle is so much easier to drown in
I can tell because if you go after the obstacle
everything that you attempt is already doomed to fail
meaning
no matter how hard you try or how little you try
it's not going to be successful
so why bother trying at all
this is comfortable this is familiar
I've done all this before
if I were to try anything different
that is more aligned with my dreams
it will not happen because the world is against me
that's hard to overcome
so instead of focusing on the obstacle
what we try to do is look at the goal
and understand that that is the thing
and every time that we hear that voice
that starts coming in well
what happens if who knows what happens
if I'm not curious about the outcome right now
I'm worried about the process the journey
the steps towards
what we're looking at on the top of the mountain
the obstacles we will handle when we get there
we're not planning for that ahead of time
cause when we do that we get bogged in the details
what we're looking at is where we're going
and we're making small
consistent steps every single day
that align with accomplishing that goal
that we have just decided is the new target
yeah I
I had a guest named Mark Kruse a couple months ago
back in August and
and you know he talked about how like
difficult situations in your life are not optional
and in fact like you can lament it
um
or you can welcome it as this is where growth is
this is
this is a chrysalis that I am going to emerge from
stronger and and more capable
um as long as there's a tension here
as long as I don't have this
second layer of endless thought about
why should why is this happening and how
you know this is wrong and all of this stuff
if I let that happen if I let that obstacle
become the meaningful part of my life
then I then I'm letting it define me
and I actually like let's imagine you're right
and the world is out to get you
and you have enemies
that are putting these obstacles in your way
focusing on
those obstacles is letting those enemies win agree
like just like agree keep looking at the
keep looking at the end zone and just get there
and if there's an obstacle in your way
well then just run through it right
and if you must ask a question
frame it differently
what is this trying to teach me
this is the hardest thing I've ever dealt with
in my life what am I learning right now
how am I growing what else can I compare this to
when I started as a beginner
that feels like this feels as terrible as it is
as painful as it is what am I what am I becoming
that's a question you can ask
that still has the curiosity
but no negativity in it
and I'm I'm not one of those positive vibes only guys
that's not at all what I'm saying
when you are in the very beginning of a growth period
you have to be curious about what it is
you're learning otherwise
you might drown
because when you hit a growth period like that
when you hit some serious discomfort
because you are taking leaps and bounds
in the new direction it's gonna suck
I mean it's gonna suck hard
and so
you're gonna have to find a way to understand why
so you can persevere yeah
it's really easy to give up
and go back to what was easy
or at least what was familiar
when we branch out when we go out into whatever is next
that's gonna be a new and different thing
and you're not gonna be great at it to begin
and a lot of us really prefer
doing the thing we're good at
instead of finding more skills to improve
to be good at them as well yeah yeah
there's no
there's no story that I've ever heard of excellence
that didn't involve that kind of crucible
yeah or
or and often more than one right yeah
a succession of crucibles
and then you kind of emerge at the end of a decade
after all of that and all of a sudden you're
you've achieved excellence
and it's yes
yeah and
and let's not forget that
excellence doesn't always look like the golden god
on top of Olympus yeah
sometimes you come out of there burnt to a crisp
no eyebrows you're absolutely destroyed
but you made it out alive yeah
you will heal and when you do
you will be bigger and stronger and tougher
and kinder and smarter
because you've been through it
but understand the final product
stepping out of that crucible
might still look a little rough
it's still gonna take some growth
before you get that smooth
polish that most people think of
when you think success yeah
yeah now speaking of success
I've seen that
you've written that people aren't afraid of failing
they're afraid of actually succeeding
talk to me more about that and and I mean
that rings true to me
and I just love to have a discussion about it sure
if I if I feel if I fear failure
it's how others will perceive me
that I have done something
I've attempted something and I have not succeeded great
if I fear success
I try something and I did it correctly
and now my bar has been elevated
now I can't go back to mediocre
now I have to stay at this new level
that I have just leveled up to meet
and possibly exceeded
didn't expect it
and so
that is something that I've got to deal with in myself
am I ready whenever I do this
with a high expectation of actually doing it
am I ready to now live at this new higher spot
it's a lot of responsibility
it it it's a higher podium from which to fall
there are a lot of things that play into it like well
you know it could I do it once yeah
can I sustain it I don't know great
that's a valid concern and I don't think everybody
is going to expect you to get there
and stay there forever
you know it's
it's it's there's a dip in there
if you got there on the first try
great
chances are there's gonna be a couple little backtracks
but you are now on a path so that
that is your new normal
and that's gonna require more of you
until you get strong enough to make that
more comfortable like where you started
yeah
it it's like it's like the fear is not about failing
it's about being exposed as a fraud
like if I succeed
then people will expect me to continue to succeed
and I'm not sure I'm willing to sign up for that
is that right
that's a lot of work yeah
it's a lot of work yeah
yeah
and and and people already think they're really busy
what they don't understand is
whenever you reach a level of excellence
that's on the next step or two above
some of the stuff that isn't necessary in your life
starts to fall away
and those are the things you're scared of losing
but once you've lost them
you realize that they really weren't that important
to begin with time with your family
crucial time with the important people in your life
always first priority
I'm not saying put your job above these kinds of things
I'm saying that some of these goals can also be
interpersonal and so
whenever you operate at a higher level
with these people some of your less favorable habits
shall we say may fall away
because you just don't have the time
or the inclination for them anymore yeah
and we're worried about that
some people really worry well
you know when am I gonna have time to uh
play Xbox with so and so and such
and such
or when am I going to have time to whatever it is
some of those things will fall away
because you've redefine your priorities
and the richness you find in your success
will often more than outshine what it is
you feel you've lost
you're not gonna feel like that's a loss
when when it comes when it comes to that
you will you will not feel it like a loss
you'll barely even notice it
you won't even notice it honestly
what you worry about losing once it's gone
you'll almost laugh
at how little importance it actually held in your life
once the real
important things started showing up and shining
I had another guest at one point in time
who described that as as you're not losing yourself
you're not losing anything
you're what you're doing is building a layer
yes and that layer is you know
it's like a a tree growing you're you know
you're just
you're just increasing and making it all better
and you're not actually losing the part of you
that existed before mm hmm
you don't have to let go of anything you don't want
yeah that
that's the thing that
I keep trying to tell all of my clients
as well
it's like it will eventually just fall off your plate
like you can keep it if you want
but what I am usually more focused on is holding on to
and cultivating
the stuff that really make us better people
and the other stuff that
there just isn't room for anymore
isn't something you noticed that you lost
it just doesn't seem to show up anymore
I don't even give it a thought
it's like OK
yeah that is such a wonderful sentiment
and I always like to to end these conversations by
by asking everybody more or less the same question
I'm putting them on the spot
so I apologize in advance
um the question is
if there's one principle that every parent listening
should consider absorbing when raising their boys
what would it be
support
whatever it is
whatever it is no matter how weird you may find it
no matter how it bucks your internal wiring of
of whatever severity support it
presence and support are so unbelievably important
I cannot even begin to tell you
they don't need to know anything
except for the fact that you've got their back
yeah like you're cheering them on great
this is wonderful I think that so many times
youngsters who are craving attention
or affection from a parent
will try to go outside the circle
because any attention is better than no attention right
unconditionally from the very beginning
and anything and everything
it shows them how safe they are in it
and I think that their choices that they make
may still be outside your comfort zone
but it gives them the safest place to land
and it builds a stronger bond
between the parent and child
I think this is so true but what do you do
I mean if you really aren't bought in
they're they're
they're
they're just
they're making what you consider to be a stupid mistake
is it gonna hurt them is it gonna hurt them
are they going to end up hurt
if the answer is no who the hell cares yeah
if there's not if this child is safe
if he's safe if she's safe
if they are safe
I don't give two hoots what they're doing
as long as it does not threaten their physical
well being I'm fine with it
children need exploration
they need discipline they need structure
they need boundaries what they don't need is judgment
as long as they're safe
cool roll with it
yeah yeah
and and safe in this circumstance means physical safety
not you know
not incurring permanent damage to your body right
please yeah
emotional is difficult that is far more difficult
and no matter how good apparent you are
there are forces in the world
especially with social media
and the way that we're connected these days
there are things that are gonna get past your radar
they're just going to yeah
the thing that you can
the thing you can control the most
not that
we've already discovered that control is an illusion
the thing you have the most control over
in this situation is making sure your
child feels safe and supported
by the people who are basically
their role models for everything
until they reach an age where they look for others
I think that's right excuse me
I I
I struggle with this um
my you know
I remember when when
when my son was young I
he would ask me to do stuff
and he would ask me if he could do stuff
and I I
my reflex ended up being no all the time
and I realized that if I gave into that reflex
then I would be saying no to him 90% of the time
and and so
I forced myself to come up with a good reason to say no
or else default to saying yes
and and that helped me really refrain that
and because because you know what
what I hear you saying here
is that the most important thing
is that the child knows that you have your that
that you have his back
and if and so that means no matter what he does
you're there you're
you're and and you will
and what that means is that you can't waste
the times that you
are saying no on stuff that is
doesn't matter otherwise or that or
or stuff that you're gonna eventually give in yeah
because then he won't respect the no when it's actually
when he's running into traffic
thank you
I when I was a kid when I was a really little kid
I was 2 years old and I was growing up in rural Alabama
so let's just get that banjo
music going in the background
all respect and love
the only thing I wanted as a two year old little boy
the only thing I asked Santa Claus for that year
for Christmas was a whoopsie doll
which was this little baby doll
that you would squeeze her tummy
and her pigtails would flip and she would squeak
my father was fit to be tied
that that was the only thing on my Christmas list
yeah
and my mother went up into his face with gritted teeth
to say that is the only thing that baby asked for
for Christmas this year
he is getting a whoopsie doll
having that support and having that doll
that's something I played
with for a total of two months
I was so little
I couldn't even squeeze her belly hard enough
to get the pigtails to flip
I had to stomp her on the ground
but the fact that I was loved and supported that un
savory behavior was not what stayed
what stayed was the fact that I asked for one thing
one thing came and that was the lesson
all this other stuff is for adults to deal with
they have years and years of attitude and conditioning
and cultural and societal context to deal with
a two year old child knows that
he got what he asked for for Christmas
we need to focus on that that is the important message
all of this other stuff is for parents and adults
to deal with
our job as people who love and care for children
whether parental uncles
whoever you are in the dynamic
it's so important for them to feel safe
supported and seen
everything else is stuff we need to deal with
is people with our own issues
yeah
yeah that is a perfect sentiment and a perfect place to
to end this discussion James
tell us where where we can hear um
where we can learn more about your work
and reach out to you and and
and listen to your podcast where
where can we learn more about you
absolutely thank you Shawn uh
the Radical Joe podcast has been around
we're about to start our fifth season
so that's very exciting for us
we've been working at it for almost 5 years now
and you can find us anywhere you find your podcasts
we're on uh streamyard as well
pardon me speaker as well as Apple Podcast
Spotify anywhere everywhere
you can also find me on the Bullard
brand.com for both personal coaching
as well as business leadership
creativity and storytelling
coaching for individuals and businesses
and yeah if you want to see any of our stuff
we're also online at YouTube and Instagram
James thanks again this is James Bullard
please check him out
the links are in the show notes below
and as always thank you for listening to Raising Men
you
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino
