continuously shame somebody

eventually they're going to become immune to shame

which is actually

a much worse problem than whatever it is

that you think you're solving

by shaming people

so that's another observation that I think is true

well I think I

I'll just say that I think shame as a tool is horrible

yeah shame is not a parenting tool

that's probably

a principle that is probably well established I agree

it is probably well established I agree

hello and welcome to raising men

I'm Shawn Dawson and today

we're tackling one of the hardest parts

about raising boys in my opinion

which is aggression when our sons

they hit or they kick or scream

at least my gut reaction is often fear

I'm afraid about his future

I I draw this line into the future that

oh my gosh

this is the way he's gonna be when he's an adult

I feel I fear that I'm failing and

and often I I react or my

gut reaction is to react with harshness or shaming

but our guest today Tasha Shore

points out that aggression

it's not a sign of a bad kid

so to speak but a signal of a frightened one

Tasha is the founder of Parenting Boys Peacefully

and the out with aggression program

and she's the author of listen

5 Simple Tools

to meet your Everyday Parenting challenges

she's here to show us how we can cultivate peace

in and out of the home with our sons

Tasha

thank you so much for joining us on raising

thank you so much for inviting me on

I'm excited for this conversation

me too

me too

so you talk about something that I

it just absolutely struck me when I encountered it

and that is the bad guy myth

and the way that I would describe that

and please correct me if I'm wrong

is that the I we

it's this idea that we mislabel boys as troublemakers

when actually they're just struggling

they're trying to make it work

and so for example

data from the center for Social Justice

shows that boys are twice as likely to get in trouble

at school as girls

and I think this is a symptom of that how much of that

lost boy trajectory

starts with misinterpreting their reactivity

as a character flaw rather than an emotional signal

I think a lot of it starts with that

and I think you touched on something which is equally

important which is the fear that we feel as a result

because our fear is then driving our response

so we're in a fear cycle they're scared and acting out

and then we're scared and acting out

and then we spiral down together

and so in order to get us out of this um

sort of world world pool

somebody's got to change

and if there's one thing we know

is that we can't change anybody else

so we gotta start with ourselves

yeah and we're the ones with the

the fully developed prefrontal cortex

we're the ones who you know

can control what we're doing

and by the way

we're the ones who are supposed to be training our sons

to to be effective in the world right

absolutely and

and it's possible I think people feel like

you know I've got so much baggage

I'm I'm 30

I'm 40 I'm 50

I've I've

you know my parents parented me in a certain way

yeah I want to stop yelling

I want to do things differently

but I just can't and I

I wanna say that you absolutely can it

I see people change all the time

but just before we got on this recording

I was working with a couple

uh from Ireland

I have been working with this couple

on and off for the last few years

and she got on and told me like

I just want to tell you like

I scheduled this not because

there's a crisis everything is going really

really well but I just wanted to have you in my world

and be able to bounce ideas

and I asked how her husband was doing

and she said one of the biggest things that's shifted

in their family

and that has helped to stop the aggression

is that they used to have this cycle where

and they also have three boys like I did or do

and they're now men that's why I said did right and and

and

one of the boys would get aggressive about something

or the two you know

two of them would go at each other

and dad would just get all fired up and get scared

do that you know

forward fear thinking that you were just talking about

oh my God

what is gonna happen they're gonna kill each other

they're gonna hate each other

blah blah

blah and he would start yelling and and and

and being harsh and shaming and all of those things

and they would spiral

and she said he doesn't lose it anymore

and

that has completely shifted the dynamics in the family

what a powerful statement

I mean

just think about what that's like from his experience

and I I

I feel this because I was kind of that way early on

I found that my son could push buttons in me

that I didn't know I have

ordinarily

my whole life I've been this real level headed guy

I don't I'm not quick to anger anything like that

but then I found that my son could trigger rage in me

in a way that no one has ever been able to do

yeah surprise surprise yeah

this is what our kids do to us yeah

it it's

it's it's absolutely amazing

and um

it was a real unlock for me

when I finally realized that

I was screaming at him to calm down

I was like wait a minute

that's insane like

he's not gonna calm down because I'm screaming at him

it's gonna it's only gonna make things worse

and I realized we were in the toilet bowl

absolutely and

and the thing is we feel so badly when we do that

we don't want to do that you didn't want to do that

that's right it's just

it's just the fallback when our toolboxes are empty

when we're running on empty

it's just what comes out automatically

it's what was done to us it's what we see in the movies

we we have to retrain our brains

we have to retrain ourselves

in order to respond differently

and like you said earlier

like one of the things that's really gonna help

is to reframe aggression as not the sign of

oh my God

this kid is totally screwed up and he's a psychopath

and he's a horrible person

but this is some form of communication

like he is struggling he is hurting inside

he is likely scared his

his his radar right

his limbic system in his brain

is sensing a lack of safety

even if you don't see that

and he's responding accordingly

so if we can get curious there's lots that we can do

yeah I

I I love that term about getting curious or

or reacting with compassion

instead of as a way I have to tamp down this activity

this this reactivity that he's having

otherwise

he's going to grow up into be a man and beat people up

right right

so what

once we have that recognition

and once we sort of

have this intellectual understanding

okay this is a fear response from him

now what do we do

well I think we always start with ourselves

so I always when I'm working with a family

that's struggling with aggression

the first place we're gonna start well

the first place we're gonna start is like safety

but part of that is how we respond

so I like to start off with parents and talk about

how do we get you into good enough parenting shape

notice not perfect parenting shape

not I'm never gonna make a mistake

not I'm never gonna wish I said

or did something differently

but good enough

that's all all I gotta do is good enough

yeah and so

that could be different things for different people

it might be getting uh

support in in terms of like

having the physical presence of another person

it might be

having somebody on the other end of a phone line

in case you need to call them for support

it it could look a lot of different ways

it might be simply telling your partner

or whoever is living with you in your house

that you're gonna do some experiments um

in terms of responding to aggression

differently than you have in the past and

and communicating with them what their role could be

or what you want them or don't want them to do

how they can be involved or how could they

they can be helpful

or maybe the helpful is that they just stay

stay back and let you do this for a while

and you assure them that you'll let them know

if you need help but there's a piece about

how do we get ourselves into good enough parenting

shape and I just want to be clear

like as we talk about the different aspects

of dealing with aggression

it's not linear right it's not like okay

you're gonna do this

and then you're gonna check that off

I mean we're all working on ourselves

for the rest of our lives yeah

we're not gonna you know we're just

we just want to be moving in the right direction

so everything that we talk about is like

it's it's a puzzle all the pieces fit together

but I would start there

and then we're gonna move into really strengthening

our connection with our sweet boys

because is the is the difference

is the difference in

is there a difference in the appropriate response

when the aggression is two boys getting at it

versus when it's a boy and a girl

I think so I think for me

I mean for okay

it depends on the context and what's going on obviously

I think for me the reason that I focus on boys is not

it is not about sort of physiological differences

it's more about how we

as adults respond differently to a boy's behavior

versus a girl's behavior and that

I think if if we can't admit that

I think we're lying to ourselves

because teachers like you said right

teachers respond differently

administrators respond differently

coaches respond differently

um we respond differently

there are studies that show that we respond differently

to even a young baby boy's cry

than we do to a baby girl's cry

from a very early age in our child's life

the world is treating them differently

simply because they've been labeled a boy right

that's a tremendous insight

and it really affects it

it I

I I

I once had my

my boy got sent home from school a couple of weeks ago

and it was because he got into a fight with a girl

a friend of his that I mean

they're great friends and they got in a fight

and he ended up holding her physically

up against a fence

and I you know I

got called into the principal's office

he got called in in

into the principal's office and it was this huge thing

and yet if he had done that to a boy

and he has done that to boys before

and boys have done that to him

it didn't turn into this enormous thing

but because it was a girl

it really did right

well so can I say

so that's what I meant by like

I do think there's context

and so I think we can if

you know if we're honest

we can understand that yeah

because there's yeah

I'm not saying it's in it's inappropriate necessarily

but it's definitely different right

so there's there's a power differential

differential in in genders

and so um

I think we as adults and all of this and

you know

I don't want you to fill in this information publicly

but you know

depending on the age

and the history of the relationship and

and what not

like it would make sense to respond in different ways

um but I think there's always in the background

this knowledge that we have to carry of

of of men and boys using their power over girls

so in this case

there could have been something like that

or there could not have been something like that

and I think the default is like

oh my God he's doing this to her right um

and and

and what I would say is that we need

to put safety first okay

for sure so we want to make sure everybody's safe

but then the part that we lose it at

and I think this is true of schools

it's true of us as parents

is that

we don't take the time to mend the relationship

right people will go to this place of oh

but it's you know

it's it's

it's trauma inducing to you know

retraumatizing for you know

the the child who was pushed up against the fence

for example to to relive it

but that's how we build resilience

is by expressing ourselves

what did it feel like what

you know what

what happened what LED up to it

what could we do differently

what do we expect do we need an apology

um you know

what sort of mentoring does he need

to be able to show up differently next time

like otherwise

we're just kind of writing him off as a bad kid

and we're basically throwing her into sort of a victim

bucket right

and neither one of those things is helpful right

it would be so amazing and revolutionary

if we could help them repair

and that doesn't mean that

they're gonna be great friends forever and

and sometimes

there might be a rift that destroys a relationship

that happens it happens in adult relationships as well

sure but most often

especially when kids are young

if we take the time to help kids repair

then they can go back to being friends yeah

in this in this particular case

um

I ended up reaching out to the father of the girl who

who is you know

an acquaintance of mine you know

our friends are our our

our kids are friends and so he's

we have we

you know we have a texting relationship

and asking him what her experience was and all of that

and it and it turned out that she was

she felt she was really really upset about the incident

but not because she was held up against the fence

but because my boy got in trouble

and she felt like it was her

fault that he got in trouble right

I mean and those are the nuances

and again

that doesn't mean that what your boy did was okay

nobody's saying that yeah

but it's nuance there's more to it

like what happens to that relationship

what happens to her okay

she feels in this case

she says she she feels bad

well that's

that's not useful to their relationship either like

like they could we

we could facilitate a conversation about that

or a repair around that as well

so anyway yes

everything is is quite nuanced

but yeah it

it's sure does play a role

but if if two people

if two kids are boy girl or boy boy yes

there's some differences but ultimately

first of all we gotta keep everybody safe

and then can we please focus in on

that relationship I always say to my kids

relationship first relationships first yeah

you know social

emotional peace first

everything else you can learn later and make up later

but like we have to nurture relationships

yeah we do

that's a really fundamental thing

isn't it we're herd animals

and if you don't have a way of establishing

and maintaining relationships

with other humans

you're broken in

in a way that the culture is gonna push you to the edge

right and real relationships are

relationships where you can mess up yeah

and then repair yeah

and then grow from that and move forward

yeah so the

the bringing it back to the steps

the first step is about healing yourself

and by fixing yourself so to speak

um what happens after that

so then

I have parents really focus in on

reconnecting with their sweet boys so

you know some parents will come and they'll feel really

they'll say you know

oh we're really connected

like we have we have good times together

other parents come and they're feeling like

I hate this kid I can't stand him

other parents are feeling like

I'm terrified of him I don't wanna be alone with him

I'm afraid he's gonna hurt me

I mean

there are all sorts of feelings that we're coming

to this work with yeah

but we have to take the time regardless to spend um

some one on one time

to really nurture those relationships

so that not

just so that the child

has some reserves of love to go on

as he's moving through his world

but also

so that we can remember that we actually like the kid

and we can feel inspired to want to help him do better

and help things go better

oftentimes when we

I teach a practice called special time

and oftentimes

there's sort of resistance on the part of the parents

knowing ah

don't feel like doing this

it takes time um

and then they'll come back to me and say like

you know I thought this was for my kid

but actually I'm really liking it

yeah because there's amazing side effects

like for example

so many parents come to me

and they're complaining

that their boy never talks to them

you know he doesn't tell me anything

especially moms because a lot of moms are much more

sort of verbal in their processing

and we wanna talk to our friends about our feelings

and how things are going

and we want our boys to do the same with us

and some do and some don't

and so they're wanting to get their kid to talk to them

and he's just not and often times

when they start this practice of special time

one of the beautiful side effects is he starts sharing

yeah so tell me more about special time

what what is special time and and

and how do we practice it

yeah special time is

just a simple

one on one time that you spend with your child

where they get to lead so it's

it's um

it turns upside down

kind of their daily experience as young children

of adults running their lives right

cause if you think about it

if you have a young child

if you have a young boy it's like

you know brush your teeth

get your clothes on go to school

did you do your homework time for practice

it's it's just

we're constantly kind of pulling and tugging

and pulling and pushing and and

and dictating what to do and then also what not to do

you know stop yelling at your sister

don't push your brother all

all the things

so so

what special hand does is it gives him this timed

little um

bubble where he gets to be in charge

and it's quite empowering

and it's also enlightening for us

because we get insights into his world

I often call it a window into his world

yeah that's

where he might share something

that he wouldn't otherwise share

because maybe when he usually comes home and he wants

he has something on his mind

and we start drilling him like a drill sergeant

he kind of clams up and shuts down sure

but if we're quiet

and we're just following his lead in special time

he gets to share what he wants

when he wants on his own terms

so it's it's nice

and you also get to see like what he's interested in

yeah

when you're not sort of dictating what's coming next

yeah so special time is a great way to do

it's not the only way to build connection

but it's one

1 tool that I love parents to have in their toolbox

and it has to be with no other kids around

so it's really like showing them

I am putting everything else aside

my email my work

my partner if I have one

your siblings if those exist right

I am all in just for you and that's an amazing feeling

and it's just one kid at a time

right and even the other sibling is gone

we're just doing this one kid

one kid this

this tool is one a one kid tool

yeah I love this

and how often would you recommend people do this

you know it's

there's there's no one size fits all

I'll say to parent you know

if you if you're coming to me for coaching and

and you've got a kid who is

you know aggressive

very aggressive on

on the daily and multiple times a day

and there's sibling stuff

or he's hurting you as a parent

um you know

we gotta we gotta do more

if things are copacetic everybody's

you know kind of

moving along in life and everything's

or most things are are going well

and there's little blips here and there

it's like whenever you can fit it

in if you can do special time on the weekend for 10

15 minutes every weekend that would be great yeah

but if it's every day you know

I'm gonna say like we we're gonna do this every day

every day yeah

cause he's screaming for help if he's acting like that

yeah and we need to answer that call yeah

one of the big unlocks for me in

in in a way to that I

that allowed me to keep in

what I call my Sherlock brain

as opposed to my Conan the barbarian brain right

one of the big unlocks for me was to realize that

there's a tension and

and both of my kids and all kids

I think have

live in this tension of

they want connection and they want independence

and sometimes they're feeling not independent enough

and so

they're trying to assert their independence by saying

no all the time for example

and sometimes they

they're not getting enough connection

and so

they're spending more time trying to get connection

and often times the way that

their reflex to get connection is to act in ways

that make it harder to connect

to scream and yell

or throw tantrums and those sorts of things

and when I was able to take a step back

and look at the 50,000 foot view

and realize oh okay

they're often seeking one of those two things

then now all I need are tools to to enhance the

connection or the independence

in a way that's consistent with our values

so I'm not going to respond

in a favorable way to throwing the tantrum

but I am still going to go

try and establish additional connection

right well

one one of the things that's really cool

another side effect of of special time

which is really cool

is that our kids begin to ask for it

and that's always how I know with clients that they're

they're doing what they need to be doing

and things are shifting because you're right

like

kids will ask for attention and call for attention and

because they need it yeah

I'll say um but often

in ways that are really hard for us to respond to

calmly or positively as parents

but when you start the practice of special time

and they start to realize on a subconscious level wow

when we're doing this like I feel better

uh huh

yeah and they're not like cognitively going over wow

I feel more connected to my dad or you know

anything like that

but like it's a somatic experience that they're having

yeah they and

and you call it something

and it doesn't have to be special time

but you call it something

they then have a vocabulary word that they can use

and they will start asking for it

like I'll just say when one of my kids was really young

he used to have such a hard time when I

would go out for the evening

like if it wasn't friends work whatever yeah um

and he would do that thing where he'd cling to my leg

right the thing you can't get him off

and crying and screaming and hitting

and all the things and

and it was like

by the time I peeled him off and got myself

you know out the door

I felt horrible I mean

how much fun was I gonna have

how great was that evening gonna go

I was just thinking about him

and then

I had this idea that I could start doing special time

before I left and give him that sort of extra

um sort of uh

you know inject a shot of connection yeah

of connection before I left

and things started to go better

and then I don't know

wasn't maybe a couple weeks later and I said hey

you know I'm going out tonight and he said well

can we do special time before you leave

wow right

and so he then had the vocabulary to ask for

the thing that he knew helped him with that transition

yeah

that is such a powerful skill or a powerful tool

I love that okay

so we've cared for ourselves

we've connected deeply now

so then if we're going through like aggression steps

and and mind you

I just wanna say everybody's different

absolutely

but if I were gonna go sort of a step by step

the next thing that I would probably have you do

is pay attention to when the aggression happens because

99% of the parents who come to me will say things like

it happens out of the blue or it's all the time

and I've been doing this for a long time

couple decades

I've never found that to be the case

not ever yeah

it's just not out of the blue

there are always signs

and when we can identify those patterns

we empower ourselves

to be able to take leadership roles

and make plans for how we're gonna respond differently

yeah I

I love that

yeah and then

so OK

so now I'm identifying the patterns and I realized that

you know this happens

I I

I I experienced this very thing

um if my boy's been spending too much time on his iPad

watching YouTube videos um

he'll start to get aggressive

yeah and so now what do I do

yeah I mean

I think that

that's a big can of worms you just tossed out there

yeah um

I just wrote an email to my uh

you know a newsletter to my

to my uh

followers this this last week about this

I cannot tell you how many

clients are coming to me in the last few months

with their kids playing Roblox

and are so addicted

that when the parents are asking them to get off

they're getting punched in the stomach yeah

they're getting like physically hurt things

are getting broken

like that's what this addiction is doing

so I mean depending on where you're at with that

like where parents are at

I mean

there's a lot of different things that we're gonna do

yeah um

but the big picture whether it be for tech or other

you know other triggers for

for the um aggression

we're basically gonna be looking at

how do we set loving limits yeah

for this child

so and by a loving limit I

I just mean the tone that we use is gonna be loving

we're gonna give it to them as my mentor taught me

like we're giving them a gift

it's not a punishment a limit isn't a

a punishment

it's not like a consequence like if you do this

then I'm gonna do that kind of a thing not that tone

not that attitude at all it's more of the

the the tone of hey

you know I noticed that when you play Roblox

for an hour after school um

when I ask you to turn it off

we thought and you thought

and I thought that it would just be an easy transition

but what's happening is

I'm actually getting hurt or things are getting broken

so I thought this was gonna work and that was okay

but it's not

and so I'm gonna start holding limits around this

and you can tell them ahead of time

but then you're actually gonna learn how to bring a

limit like not just yell at

but actually make the thing happen

so a lot of limit setting with aggression a lot

a lot and you

to what extent do you should

we give them input into what those limits ought to be

um you know

that depends on their maturity level

it also depends on your values and your relationship

yeah I would also say

a litmus test that I like to use with parents is

are you confused about your limits

or are you questioning this limit

because you're afraid of how he's going to react to it

or how he's gonna respond

because if that's the case

we need to revisit that yeah

if you're just thinking to yourself well

you know

he likes to have a say in in in what happens and I'm

I'm okay with sort of co

creating this next plan with him

and seeing how it goes as long as it

you know X doesn't happen or why doesn't happen

or it's within certain boundaries

then you could absolutely start there

like I just worked with a couple um

and and we had this exact conversation and they decided

um because of who their boy is

and what they know about him

he tends to be sort of a PDA kind of a profile and he

he pushes back and

and he does better when he gets to say

and so there was a red line right

they can't have the aggression

after the test goes off but

there are a few ways that we could go about doing that

we could do we could go cold Turkey and do like

a tech fast for two weeks

or we could go back to um

kind of a a time limit

strategy that we had been doing a few months ago when

and the aggression wasn't

you know wasn't present then

so they decided that

even though they knew which one he would likely choose

they wanted to present him the option of hey

this isn't working yeah um

so we're gonna try something different

would you like this or this

what do you think what would you like to try as the

as the next experiment

and so that would be an example of

of parents who decided but

a different set of parents could have

decided something completely different

and that would have been fine

you get you're the expert on your family right

you get to decide

yeah I think

you know my

my instinct on that you know

based on how I was raised right

which is one of the one of my fundamental things

is that the way that I was raised is maladaptive

for our modern society and in a lot of ways

and the way that I was raised is my

and my my gut reaction is okay

I'm gonna bring the hammer

if you're gonna have interact

if you're gonna have that kind of aggression

after you play Roblox well

then no freaking Roblox right

and then it it

it turns into this absolute nightmare because the

the aggression finds another outlet and it isn't it's

it ends up getting enhanced by that solution

rather than suppressed by it right

and so what I would do in working with parents is say

like you know what actually Sean

I think you have a reasonable ask

or a reasonable experiment to try

which is to go cold Turkey and do a tech fast

like I think that's reasonable

like

let's talk about if that aligns with your values of

you know how

and then we can play out like

how we think your kids gonna react

we can set you up for success in those situations

and we can prepare you so that you can show up

still with that limit but in a loving way

like I get

I see this is hard we're gonna get through this yeah

I know you can do it and I'm here to help

because that's also empowering to them

to know that they can actually do alright without it

they don't want to be aggressive

right like they

they love that reassurance of

I know you can do this

and we're gonna get through this

I'm gonna help you yeah

they don't

they actually don't wanna feel that way either

no they feel like they do

but they don't

they feel horrible yeah

I I find another one of my

uh reflexes

that doesn't really work all that well is to like

try and stop and give him a lecture

oh I love that one

yeah and

and it's almost like

I feel like I can reason him out of the tantrum or

or reason him out of the the like OK

I've taken the the iPad away

and now I'm gonna sit him down and make him

listen to me drone on for 10 minutes

about the importance of balance in life

and all this BS

and I mean you've

you've done a lot of you you speak very negatively uh

to that and it was

it was eye opening to me tell me more about that

yeah yeah

I I'm

I'm a big like zip your mouth shut coach

yeah I'm not a let's name the feelings coach

because what I've seen over 20 years of doing this

is that 99.9% of the time

when we try to like

name the feeling or if we are moving in with

like you said this lecture about life and balance

and all the things that are

you know important to us and rightly so

it doesn't land yeah right

it doesn't land in that moment

but it often also doesn't land outside the moment

right and

and I'm just very pragmatic

if you're coming to me

like there's aggression going on

or your boy is struggling

like I want things to go better

and I know that they

can and that's just not gonna help it

I just say to parents straight up like okay

I would just say to you like

how's that going for you Sean

is that working yeah

is that working

yeah and it doesn't work

and it doesn't work I mean

one of the one of the things that I realized and

and it goes back to that metaphor of the Sherlock

Holmes brain versus the cone on the barbarian brain

the the kids in cone on the barbarian bro

and if you try and use Sherlock tools to

to get to him in in Conan mode

it's not gonna happen

it's exactly the same thing if I'm

you know having a yelling screaming fight with my wife

it's not gonna it's not gonna happen

it doesn't work with adults either

it sure as heck isn't gonna work with a

with a with a 5 year old kid yeah

no I agree

I I

I I really agree

and I think there's just like

a fundamental misunderstanding also

just about why they're acting out in this way

and there's I talk about the the can versus the won't

and I think when we're responding in that way

with the lectures and whatnot

we're in the mindset of my kid

you know won't do what he knows is right

or won't do what he should do

um and

and that's a really disempowering place to be like

I don't even care if it's true

or not it just is disempowering for us

I would much rather have you in that mindset of

he's doing the best he can

always like yeah

he just can't do better right now

which isn't to say we're gonna excuse the behavior

but what it does is

it makes us refocus back on ourselves

yeah and think about how can we modify what we're doing

whether that be with limits or connection or

you know play

which we haven't stepped into

but which is another thing that I really talk about

in terms of um

aggression like how do we use play strategically

like how can we use these things

to help make the situation better

because he doesn't want to be acting this way

he just can't do differently in this moment

yeah and we react as I love that framing

oh he won't behave in this way

it's almost like saying oh

he won't lift this 200 pound box right

like you wouldn't say that

but you do say it about behaviors

well he doesn't have

it's the same exact thing

in the 200 pound box situation

he doesn't have the strength

or the skill or the muscles

and it's exactly the same thing

with the intellectual skills

the intellectual muscles the intellectual strength

he doesn't have to be able to adjust his behavior

it's the exact same thing

and yet we treat it differently

I agree I

I often use a broken arm example because I

think parents really get it as I'll say to them

look if he broke his arm and he had um

you know a

something that he had to write for school for homework

and his

he was right handed and his right arm was in a cast

and he couldn't hold a pencil right

you wouldn't be yelling and screaming him

screaming at him about

you know like get that pencil in your hand

you need to write this homework out

you know you wouldn't you would get creative

you'd you'd be like alright

well do you want to dictate and all write it or

you know

maybe there's some AI tool that you could use to do it

right you'd help them get creative

yeah and

and we gotta do the same thing

when it's just an emotional hurt

rather than a physical hurt

so let me ask you a provocative question of

something that I've been thinking a lot about

because what this brings to mind is that

when you sit down and lecture them or or

you know treat them as if they're not doing their best

uh or they're doing it intentionally

essentially what you're doing is shaming them

you're you're kind of trying to make them feel shame

for not doing the right thing

and I have a hypothesis

and I want your feedback on it is

and the hypothesis is that there's never actually

a valid use for shame as a parent

what is your reaction to that

I love that you're asking me that question right now

because I've been thinking about it a lot

um

I've been thinking about it a lot

because I recently did a training

I'm now trained in the space program

it's a program that Eli Lebowitz at Yale

put together to help kids with anxiety and OCD okay

and during that training um

there was a section around aggression

and a lot of what he does

and what he teaches is very similar to what I do

but one thing really struck me

and I'm trying to play around with it right now

and he said um

that if we think about like domestic violence right

if there's a if there's aggression in the home

let's just say one parent is being um

violent towards another

secrecy is a problem

right

we need to go public with it to protect the person

and to move forward on the healing

you know on the healing journey

yeah absolutely

and he said it's the same thing with this aggression

and he said something to the effect of

I'm totally paraphrasing that

that like a little bit of shame is okay

is useful for the child

in terms of being able to stop the aggression

I'm not saying I agree or I disagree

I'm simply playing with this right now with clients um

in a way that I haven't before

so part we talked earlier about setting up for success

and setting ourselves up for success

right when we're first starting to address aggression

and one of the things there is

is like I said are there people that we need to tell

um how do we use the resources in our life

and he introduced an idea that I hadn't

I thought about

which is to use what he calls supporters in a

in a really specific way where the child knows that

each time they're aggressive

we are going to tell that adult

that supporter

and then that supporter reaches out to the child

now what's interesting here is that yes

right

there's a little bit of shame there because any of us

when we do something

you know mean or hurtful to somebody we love and and

and we know other people we care about know about it

we feel shame yeah

but we also wanna do better

yeah

and the way that the

that supporter comes in and talks to the child

is very aligned with everything

that we've been talking about here

it's supportive it's loving

it's like you know I

I love you you're a great kid

like I know you don't want to hurt your mom um

you know I heard from her that

after she asked you to turn off your Roblox yesterday

that you punched her um

you know we know that's not okay

so next time you feel that um how about you

shoot me a text or how about

you call me or I don't know

like I'm just making this up on the spot or

or or

or what what do you think we should do next time

what do you think we should exactly what's our plan

so there's yeah something

I love that you just asked me about shame

because two weeks ago I would have said

there's no place for shame

no shame never

we don't want to shame a child yeah

and I'm always open to learning because like I said

I'm very pragmatic I want the aggression to stop

I mean I have great success with families

but if we can do it faster um

and and

and more efficiently and stop the aggression sooner

in a way that's still supportive of the child

you bet I'm in on that so I'm playing around with this

so I don't know I

I and I've been thinking a lot about it too

and what but what one of the things so I've got

I've got a couple of thoughts on it

that I'd love to share and get your feedback on

one of them is that I feel like shame is a tool

that our society and our culture uses

to communicate this favor

and it is really powerful

our

our feeling

our need to be part of the herd is so strong

that when we start to feel that shame

that societal shame

it becomes such a powerful force we almost want we

can't

we feel like we can't live without getting rid of it

and that's one thing another thing is

so it's really really powerful

but as with many powerful things

it loses its effectiveness if it's overused

and so if you

continuously shame somebody

eventually they're gonna become immune to shame

which is actually a much worse problem

than whatever it is that you think you're solving

by shaming people

so that's another observation that I think is true yeah

what do you think about those two things

well I think I

I'll just say that I think shame as a tool is horrible

yeah shame is not a parenting tool

let's just there is OK

that that that's

that's probably a principle that that we can

that is probably well established

I agree

yeah I

I I

I don't think our goal is ever to use shame

to transform behavior yeah

um I'm just getting curious with this new thing

if there's a way to bring something that

you know Brene Brown talks about shame

some kind of to paraphrase sloppily um

you know grows in in darkness

yes and so

we don't want to keep that aggression locked up

in a dark room right

because that child is feeling ashamed and ashamed

because of what he has done

and is doing continually with the aggression

hurting somebody that he loves yeah

so that shame is growing anyway

so I'm going like well

can we how do we compare

that shame

with the tinge of shame that he might feel

if I tell grandma

but grandma comes back lovingly saying

I know this is hard

but I'm 100% sure that you can do it yeah

I heard this happened right

and I know it's hard to do differently

but let's make up another plan

I know it's hard but I know you can do it yeah

so shame is not a parenting tool

but maybe there's a way when it happens naturally

we can we can use it to our advantage

it's tough it's a

it's a tough thing

but I I

I will say one other thing on that

which is that there's always attention

and so anytime anytime I find myself thinking

a is always the right way to go

there's almost always a

B that is diametrically opposed to that

and the real answer is somewhere between a and B

and so never I think we get

go ahead well

I just say I think we get stuck on sort of like the

the little details of how we're gonna respond yeah

and and I think we can just be broader

like what if we paint it with a broader brush and say

OK if our child is struggling

they are they are needing us in some way

they are needing connection with us right

um and so

what's a way that we can offer them connection

right now and that way might be different than

it was five minutes ago

and it might be different than it looks in an hour

and it might be different than it looks tomorrow

but yeah we're always asking ourselves

like I'm always wanting us to be asking ourselves

how can I help that child

like in Dan Seagals word how can I help him feel felt

uh huh feel my love just because your parents well

I do love him okay

it's like great

I love my kids too

sometimes they feel that and sometimes they don't

depending on how I'm showing up

and what state they're in right

so if we just put connection at the forefront

I think the details kind of fall into place

yeah I think that's a beautiful way to

to cut the knot I

you mentioned something about a play and I wanted

I wanted to let you riff on that for a moment

talk to me about the the need for boys to play

yeah I mean

I think human beings in general need to play

and I think boys often times

not always but often times play rougher than um

a lot of people are comfortable with

and so I think that we have to work on ourselves

so that we can get a little bit more comfortable

with that rough and tumble

kind of play

if that's something that our boy really thrives on

and so for example

like often times I'll have a mom come to me and

caught two boys and

and they're going at each other hard

like they wrestle and they're rolling

and they're jumping and they're doing all the things

and often someone will end up getting hurt at the end

and she's going she's like

they're killing each other

they're hurting she's trying to stop them and

and I would suggest let's

let's start by asking them like

do y'all want some help here

are you doing OK because

our perception of what's going on

is often very different from what's going on for them

and so I just think we wanna be sensitive

there's no again

there's no one one thing that's always gonna be true

every child is different but in general

rough and tumble play is a great way to connect

yeah sweating together

laughing together

whether you're adults or children or adults at

with children like it

it it

it breeds connection which is what we want right

we laugh together we feel closer

we sweat we feel closer

we we get bonked

we get to support each other when we're hurt

it builds connection it builds closeness

and those are all things that are like the

the foundation for the sort of

whole house that we need to build around

the aggression falling away

I think that's not a good metaphor

but essentially like we need

we need that we need that rough and tumble

yeah and and

and often times parents that I work with have to

work through some discomfort around that

or they go too hard yeah

right there are some parents who are just like

yeah let's get in there and play

but they're like pummeling the kid

right with the pillow and he's like wow

this is too hard yeah

we need to be aware like

the idea isn't like

as the parent that we're gonna like

you know play the crap out of our kid

no it's like

let them win if they're little and if they're bigger

you still kind of wanna give them a chance

you gotta play harder right

cause it's not fun for them

if you're gonna 10 year old

and you're playing as if he's three

it's not fun you have to up the resistance

but you're gonna play with that to

to the level where there's laughter happening

and the last thing I'll just say about this is

when we have aggression um

parents often feel like

if they're playful in their response

that it's condoning the behavior

yeah and I just really want to say out loud that

that is not the case our goal is to connect

our goal is to help our child

sense that we see his goodness underneath the behaviors

and that we're gonna help him through

and play is a great way to do that

it's not sending the message okay

your behavior is okay it's sending the message okay

I see you're struggling

I'm not gonna take those behaviors

seriously

I'm gonna try to get at you from another angle

I'm being strategic in my parenting yeah

you're almost modeling okay look

this is an appropriate

way to get the thing that you're after

over in this inappropriate behavior

yeah yeah

I like that a lot

if there are people out there right now

who are dealing with aggressive kids

what should they do if they want help right away

what should they do

yeah I have a few ways that I help parents

so if aggression is the No. 1 issue

um I have a course called out with aggression

a step by step practice to stop your voice

aggressive behavior and lift your parenting confidence

and I can give you the link to that

and it's a course that brings you through all the steps

that I just mentioned but with live support

so I will be there

and there's a community of people who will be there

to answer your questions and to cheer you on

and all of that so it's not just

you know here

go figure it out um

so if aggression is top of mind

and that is something that you're ready to commit to

nipping in the bud and you're ready to start

that would be the best place to start

if

a group experience is something that you've discovered

doesn't work well for you

you tend to not show up and you need

you know the personal trainer

I do have one on one coaching as well

that could be

because you're struggling with aggression

in your family it could also be for you know anxiety

it could be for sleep issues or sibling issues

or whatever I do do one on one coaching

and then lastly if you feel like

you know things are a little bit rocky

not horrible but a little bit rocky or you know

they're okay

but you just want to be in a community of parents

who are committed to parenting their boys peacefully

and protecting that their boys right to

to feel and process emotions

and grow into emotionally intelligent men

and just want to be in a community of people who are

actively committed to that

and thinking about that regularly

I have um

a membership community called Parenting Boys Peacefully

and we would be happy to welcome you into that as well

I love all of those resources

and those links are in the show notes

Tasha thank you so much for taking

the time to be with us today

and sharing your wisdom I uh

it is so much in line with the mission of raising men

and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it

I really appreciate the opportunity

to share my thinking with you

thank you for trusting me with your audience

I I don't take it lightly

so thank you thank you

Tasha Shore is the founder of Parenting Voice

Peacefully and the out with

aggression program and also the author of listen

5 Simple Tools to meet your Everyday Parenting

challenges check her out in the show notes and remember

you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino