they will start spewing things at you

you know the other parent says this about you and

and as if they believe it and it's very very triggering

because you feel like okay I got

away from this person and now my kid

is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this

and so the instinct is to often

correct the record or say no that's not true

this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did

absolutely of course it is right

yeah it's one of the worst things you can do

welcome back to raising men parenting is hard

at the best of times but it takes on uniquely

difficult challenges in the middle of a storm

of a high conflict divorce so how do you provide

emotional safety and moral stability to your son

when your partner becomes your opponent

our guest today

is Lisa Johnson she's the co founder of been there

got out and the author of a new book when your ex

turns your kids against you Lisa is a high

conflict divorce strategist and a certified

domestic violence

advocate who has turned a grueling personal journey

into a roadmap for others Lisa's testimony was

instrumental in passing Jennifer's Law in Connecticut

which expanded the legal

definition of domestic violence to include

coercive control which is a pernicious form of abuse

she's here to help us tackle some tough questions

hopefully we won't have to face

but Lisa's inspiring personal story and her lessons

are instructed

to parents in healthy relationships also

Lisa welcome to the show

wow Shawn what an introduction thank you

well let's

first of all I I find I your story is absolutely

amazing

so why don't you just start with sharing with us

alright so

just tell me where to start cause I am a talker and I

that's great

let's begin at the beginning

at some point you were married you had kids

yeah and it started going sour what happened

well actually

I didn't think it started going sour it was kind of

an explosion I basically was with my ex for

20 years we were married for nearly 18

I thought he was my best friend we got

along pretty well we had two kids together you know

red flags hindsight's always 20 20 but sure um

two years before our actual divorce

I discovered that he had been living a double life

that he had been soliciting other women for the entire

relationship things started

coming out that were at the tip of the iceberg and it was just more and more and more and I was

absolutely

um flabbergasted and so we

decide I in my mind at the time it was like I will do

anything to keep this family

together because I had the

idea that you had to have an intact family

or the kids lives would be ruined and my ex

used to say that cause he knew that mattered

so much to me he said if you divorce me

you're gonna ruin their lives so

I stayed in it it took two years we

um you know to finally

get out but um we went through three rounds of couples

counseling all kinds of

crazy crazy stuff and then um

when I finally met with a divorce attorney

uh he told me within 20 minutes yours

is gonna be one of the really bad ones and I thought

that is crazy like how did he know that

but I really I always say I

I really believed at the time that my ex

was a good person who had done some bad things

I thought this would be amicable

we had spent two years trying to work things out um

and that we would go to mediation

it would be done I remember being terrified

that my divorce was gonna cost a $10,000

I had heard that was the average it cost

10 times that amount in the first year

and then I was in court for 10 years total

so my divorce attorney was right it

again it cost $100,000 that first year

and took a full year and at the end of that year

my divorce attorney who

became like one of my best friends

that year of course cause we had such an intimate relationship cause we spent

so much time together he said yours

is he is not going to follow this agreement um

you cannot afford me he's going to financially

decimate you he's gonna continue to do it

so you need to go on your own

I'll be here on the background but we'll probably get you some paralegal if you need it and you need to start building

your case now

so he was right I went on my path my pro

se or self represented journey um

it took about a year and nine months for me to sort of catch my breath

and put together a really

powerful case and then I went back pro

se or pro per in California it's also called and then

another seven and a half years about a hundredish

court appearances in two states um

including him appealing

four times me representing myself

at the appellate court level um

even though I was told oh you better not do that cause it's a really big deal

and me saying well I don't wanna spend $15,000

to have someone else

speak for me when I've already done so well

so not only won that case but then um it was notable

enough to be published as case law

so that's one of my biggest triumphs because

for a lawyer to get published

is a really big deal and everyone I've ever spoken to is like I have never heard of a prose

getting published so that was something

then of course the Jennifer's Law

being involved with that and then um

my ex actually sued

my partner and I for $4 million in defamation

in civil court that was like year 9

when it was like almost ending

so we we got that thrown out um

finally but it was just like having

a terrorist for all those years and to this day still

sometimes going to the mailbox I I

flinch because I'm like what's what fresh hell

might be awaiting me you know

things like that but that's brutal and it's not I mean

you're you're entwined

forever because you have kids

with this person and so it's not just like getting married

you you have kids too and you know

that's the father of your children what I mean

it's not like you can just not deal with each other

no and that did not go as planned either

tell me about that

so we went to when I

when I first met my lawyer

he said I think the best thing for you to do is go to mediation

and just have me in the background don't even tell your

your ex that you have an attorney

just meet individually with a mediator um

and this is something we advise

to our clients who can handle it

and so we managed to get a really good parenting plan

um that said we had joint

physical and legal custody meaning we shared decisions

but my ex never showed up

oh he completely just left he didn't

he he didn't do a single visitation

I was trying to reach him and I was like where are you

right before um well actually it was it might have been

I don't remember if it was the day we told the kids

that we were getting a divorce but he had a key ring

and you know like on your key ring

sometimes you have those little cards like for

for the supermarket

or like the library things like that that you kind of

scan so I distinctly

remember when it was like we're getting a divorce

right in front of our son who was maybe 14 at the time

he had a a key ring for the YMCA and the library

cause he used to take our son to the library and drop them off at the YMCA

and he took them off and threw them on the table and said I guess I don't need these anymore and I was like

what and he basically walked out and especially

for those first 10 days he just disappeared

the kids were calling him

emailing him he wasn't answering

and he went and moved in with his father and

I imagine he was doing a lot of

online fantasy dating who knows what but he just gone

and so I felt like

I was left to clean up this huge mess

and I didn't even know what to say to the kids because

it I really thought like

we're both gonna co parent and you're gonna

find a place and you're gonna be happy to have them and

I was looking

forward to having some weekends to myself finally and

doing my thing and he just he just was gone

so that was absolutely

heartbreaking that was the scariest thing

in my life because remember I was already terrified

of the relationship ending

and and having a non intact family ruin their lives

but I never

imagined they have a a parent that just abandoned them

yeah and and then you know I mean it it

the fatherhood absence is list

is is linked to higher delinquency

to mental health issues to

how people are doing in school and overall long term um

affects

and you you just have to be looking at that and

thinking my gosh what do I do yeah

yeah it was it was really bad and it was like right

it was right before Easter and um

I think it was like right before Easter break

that we actually told the kids and so I was scrambling

trying to find therapist we had this

we have this thing in town it's called

kids in crisis it's like this this resource

place for families

I remember going down there with the kids

and all these other things were closed

and I was just like I need names of therapists and

and I didn't even know where to start and I was thinking

we gotta get like individual therapists for them and um

and I remember my daughter we we couldn't

find like a really good one right away but for my son

I got so lucky I found this guy Mark

who was like a former

Hell's Angel type he's like this huge

guy and he'd show up on this big motorcycle he had

dropped out of high school but he had like two master's

degrees

and he was like big and gruff and he and my son really

really connected and um and

but they didn't talk about like therapeutic

stuff they they talked about debate

and politics and stuff that

like Izzy would talk about with his

his father in the past so I remember

thinking like when are they gonna get to the stuff

and and um I remember asking Mark about it and he said

let me do my job like I know what I'm doing

but the thing I need to do with your son

because of what he's dealt with is

we need to just establish that rapport

and then we'll get to that stuff

later but it was really hard I mean my son

um got very aggressive I didn't understand

what was happening but he would lash out at me and I

remember making threats sometimes being like I can't

cause my son's

like a lot bigger than me at the time too

I was like I'm gonna

have to take you to kids in crisis cause

cause like I can't

I I don't know how to deal with you and I

remember calling Mark one night

he's like that is the last thing you can you do because

right now Izzy's dealing with a parent

that's walked out of his life

and for you to also say I can't deal with you that's

that's the worst so it's really um healthy

that he's expressing

this anger and aggression cause he's getting it out

yeah so you gotta be strong and you gotta stand

stand by him and it'll ride

through and then we can really start getting to the work and he was so right but I it was terrifying

that's that has to be one of the hardest things

that you just have to deal with because you're facing

this personal

chaos

outside of that and then now your son is

acting the same way almost almost being your enemy

but what he's seeking is connection

right I mean he didn't want to be

he wanted to say like testing

are you gonna stay with me that's right

yeah yeah I mean we still like we we just recently

repainted his room and the door has like all of these

sparks on it and I said I wanna leave I wanna

leave the door he also has all these funky bumper

stickers from when he was a kid that I wanna keep

but I'm like it it reminds me of of how far we've come

yeah I had a guest named Tasha Shore

and I know her oh OK great yeah

I've interviewed her a couple of times

she's spectacular she is we and she

she talks a lot about aggression

yes and she says that aggression is a fear response

yeah and the way that I

analog your your son's behavior at that time

from what you've told me in that context is

he was afraid he was afraid he's just lost his father

he's afraid that he's gonna lose his mother

he doesn't know what the world is gonna look like and

the only reflex he has is aggression and it's a way of

testing you it's a way of seeking connection and you

I just can't believe how fortunate you were to have

that therapist in your life at that time

it's almost like divine intervention

I know Guardian Angel I still send him holiday cards

I think he's in like Alaska or Washington state

but I'm like you were you helped our family so much

oh that's that that's fantastic um so

so we got to the point

where it's been two years down the road

we've we've got the divorce finalized

and then there so there were another

another eight years of just

fighting and fighting and fighting how did it end

how did it eventually stop

well I mean so what happened was and

I'm very lucky because I didn't have a custody battle

I have to say that my son

actually said something really heartbreaking

a few years later he was like I wish you had

had a custody battle

because then he at least would have cared

enough to fight you for us and he didn't

so that was really sad

but the thing that brought us back that

I took him back to court for was um college so I'm

you know I used to be a high school English

teacher I have a master's

degree education is one of my core

values like everything is education and growing up

um when the you know when the kids were growing up

we used to see his family every week and

and get together with his super rich dad who was paying

for his other grandson's college

education and used to be like

you know I'm gonna pay for your kids college education

we'd all be like oh thank you so much thank you so much

and um of course he never did it

and so during the time as we were

you know when my ex and I were still together he said

we don't need to do a 5 29 college plan

because my dad's gonna pay for it you know the grandfather

said he'd take care of the grandkids education

so let's take that money and put it into my retirement

account that'll be ours

and we'll use your money for the day to day expenses

like my income

so you can imagine what happened of course

he kept the entire retirement

his father refused to pay and he refused to pay

and that was another threat

he had said if you divorce me I'm not paying

for our kids college education I was just like

not that he would pay only for but he's like I'm not paying a penny

right and I was I was so angry about that because

I felt like his father broke his word he broke his word

we put language in our agreement that said had we

stayed together of course we would have supported our

our children's college

education he has a college degree too

um and I felt like it was really

punishing the kids to hurt me

financially by by taking that stance

so when I went back to court

it was for what's called an educational support order

and in our state

um

especially because I had that language in the order that said

had we stayed together we both would have contributed

it was just a matter of deciding percentages

so I went back as a prose and

and dealt with that and did very well but it took for you know

it took like 9 months to

actually no it took a year cause it was December

of 2017 and I got orders in 2018 um

and then he wouldn't comply he just wouldn't

pay his share

and so that was more years in court and also in the process

um we I already knew that he hadn't

told the truth on what his called his financial affidavits

so we also put protective language in that said

um the numbers for child

support and alimony are based on what he provided

on the legal documents but if it ever is determined

that there was additional income

that that will trigger a modification so of course you

know he had 14 rental properties he kept putting zero

as income I was like

I'll deal with you later and I did and so I

I took that back too and

and ended up winning that stuff as well so

all of that those three motions plus Covid plus

you know him being angry and vengeful

about the fact that you know why should he have to contribute

anything since we got a divorce

that was what kept us in court all those years

it was maddening how destructive I mean it's just it

you know rather than spending all that energy

rather than spending all that money fighting

just go to an arrangement

well I always say that his lawyer

financially abused him far worse than

I ever could have or anyone because

his lawyer should have just said follow the order

just just pay what you're supposed to

you don't need to pay me for all these years and all these appearances

right just follow the order I mean that's what happened

yeah he didn't follow the order it was the agreement

it's stronger than a court order he agreed

to do these things and he just was like I don't

I don't have to so he ended up spending probably

four or six times as much

as what he would have had to do had he just

follow the order but that's why

um these cases are very very different

and in my my career with my partner

Chris we only deal with these crazy cases because

they have to be handled very delicately

and very differently than

normal divorce cause when

we talk about what goes on with us

um and our clients talk about their stories

no one could believe it cause it defies

logic why would somebody choose to

spend 6 times the amount if they had just

followed the order it's because there's

other psychological things going on yeah

a normal person

with a normally healthy relationship can't fathom

right that

it could go like that because it makes no sense

it's a lose lose why would anyone opt

for that and it's obvious it's not like

it's not like the data is not there

right and people think well everybody loves their kids

like who would do something like that why would you do that I

can't imagine abandoning my kids and that would

happen if I got a divorce

yeah I'd I'd be worried about maintaining

making sure that I had access to my children that's how

85 ish

plus percent of people are but then there's this

chunk of us that it's not like that that feel very

alone and very isolated

because you say what's going on and people are like

it must be something they almost don't believe you

they almost say

what have you done to like what is his side

right what what what have you

done to deserve this they don't understand

the nature of domestic violence

they don't understand personality disorders you know

it's just but it but it's not the same and there's so many people dealing with this kind of stuff

so now you've pivoted

you're leveraging this 10 this decade long war story as

as a way to help people avoid

and and and strategize in their own situations

is that right

yeah yeah that's that's been there got out

yeah I love that and so

you know what would you have done

differently or what should you have done differently

okay how much time if you had this situation

to live over again I mean there's there's

there's so many things I would have done differently um

but I think the first one was I would have taken

strategic oversight of my case well first of all

no backing up before that I

I would have known what narcissism

was I would have known a bit more about addiction

I wouldn't have thought I have to do this logically and

I would have educated myself a lot more

there's an excellent book called splitting

by a Guy Named Bill Eddie and it's about

dealing with narcissistic and borderline

personality disorders during a divorce

I unfortunately found that book like

a year and a half after I got divorced

after that first year but

it was right before my partner Chris

whose divorce took three years

that that book made him finally cross the finish

line and the author of its name is Bill Eddie

he is a former social worker turned

high conflict family lawyer turned

founder of what's called the High Conflict

Institute and I think he's actually based in San Diego

but um

anyway now we work with yeah governments and

businesses to reduce the level of conflict

and he actually wrote the forward to our upcoming

book which is very very exciting but um but anyway so

there's there's ways to deal with these people

very very differently and I think I would have

um been able to educate my my lawyer was wonderful but

neither of us knew what we were dealing with and we didn't understand

that the more engagement we had

just dragged it out longer

so I think we wouldn't have negotiated as much

we would I I would have taken a a firmer

stance on certain things I would have communicated

differently I think I would have um

stroked my ex's ego a lot more I would have uh

yeah I mean

the the post judgment stuff like all those years maybe

there could have been stuff I would have but that was

that was really financial and that was him not following

the order but um

but we see a lot of mistakes

made in terms of communication from the very beginning

yeah that's yeah that's fascinating I and I can imagine

I can imagine having having a coach

if that's your situation if you're in that situation

having a coach or having someone

I can imagine that it would be a very lonely experience

and that having someone like you

would be tremendously helpful

yeah well I think because people see things on TV

they hear

what we call Barstool Council like friends and

and other people saying

oh well this is what you should do this is what I did or this is what someone I know

but they don't understand like these cases are very

very different and even each of the high conflict

cases are are different

um so we often say to our clients

like you know your ex better than anyone

and no one else has to live with the consequences

of the decisions

you make now except for you and your family so

it's really really important to understand

what's going on

to understand every stage of the process to not

feel pressured into making decisions

just because you're exhausted

to think about the long term consequences

to realize like you can't just cut someone

out of your kid's lives

like you have to figure out a way

to co parent because even people in jail

have parenting rights and the impact on your children

is is not just till they're 18

it's it's for the rest of their lives absolutely um

my kids actually did recently um

reconnect with their their father

I thought it was like a done like he was gone

but that's

one of my friends was telling me the other day she said it's almost like

when a child's been adopted it

no matter how wonderful their adoptive

parents are they're still

curious so even when someone has left

you you still wanna you know you wanna

know and stuff and so but I do think that

a lot of the decisions he made in terms of how he

treated them or neglected them is impacting

you know whatever happens moving forward

so of course yeah and there's

it's interesting gonna be a lack of trust there

yeah yeah it's it's interesting because I think

my son has a very strong personality

and early on I thought hmm

my daughter's the one who's like

really really sensitive and she'll be affected more but

now they're young adults

and I actually think the opposite I think my son is a lot more vulnerable

maybe because he's a boy um

and also the relationship that he had

in the beginning and he was the one who chased

after his father

and I also see things in my partner Chris

whose father abandoned him

when when his parents got a divorce and he always

was kind of chasing love and I I kind of worry

about that I mean'cause that's what attracted

Chris my partner to his ex you know

getting involved with people who are more avoidant

and so I hope that doesn't happen I mean

my my son's had relationships and stuff but now that

his dad is kind of intermittently back I I wonder

you know I'm always worried that he's gonna get hurt

again

so we'll see

yeah and yeah that's you gotta take that risk I think

but I can't do anything

I mean it's his life and he's a grown up that's right

how do you you know how did you help

your son process the trauma

of the high conflict divorce um

you know without him feeling

like he has to man up and bury

his feelings and stuff did

you manage to thread that needle

yeah so that's that's an excellent question and um

and actually

years ago when my son was over the age of 18 he was

asked to be on a podcast called Slam the gavel where

the interviewer was asking

about what it was like being the child

of a high conflict divorce and

we gathered a bunch of questions

from our Instagram audience at the time of what

people wanted to know if you could ask a child

who's an adult and the the most popular

question was how did you what did your mom do

to help you get through this um I know it for me

and I'll tell you his answer in a second but for me

the most important thing was

shielding him from it like not talking about

stuff with his dad not talking about stuff with court I mean they saw

me in court they

they knew that I was busy

with court but like I go to my dad's office um in

another location and and spread

stuff out I didn't talk about it with them I just um

did what I had to do and it's

interesting cause my son said just

like a year ago he said oh I didn't know

I didn't know that dad sued you for defamation

like I didn't and I said oh

good yeah I'm glad you didn't know that

but when he was asked the question on the podcast

what did your mom do what

what helped you the most he said she kept it together

so I think me getting support for myself

taking care of myself

that was the best thing that I did for both

Izzy and his sister because

he never felt emotionally

responsible for me I think one time

very early in the process they

they made some comment I was driving

them to school and I started

crying they and I'm like pretty stoic

and they both were like oh my God

oh my God I'm so sorry mom I'm so sorry but I was just like

but I really tried to not show my sadness to them and

deal with stuff with

with friends I had a trauma therapist uh'cause I

I just didn't want them to feel like they had

to take care of me and apparently

they didn't so that's that's really

really good so that's fantastic self regulation

yeah well and and I just from my con

uh from my conversations with

other guests I can tell you that uh finding your son

men good role models to spend

time with and just the more time that they can spend

with healthy men um I I

I I just know that that made a difference and yes

and now I now you just made me think about that

so my my dad and I and and part

part of what's been so heartbreaking for me is

my dad and I are really really close my dad's 85

he's an identical twin

my dad and I have lunch every single week we meet

and have lunch together I love that yeah and so um

and I almost it's like I have two dads

because of the identical twin

thing and they work together and they

dress the same sometimes it's really wild

amazing wrestle oh my gosh

they don't wrestle now they're they're like kind of

you know yeah 85 is a little old to still yes but um

but my dad and I have always been really really close

and so

I I feel heartbroken that my kids don't have that but

um

but my dad was there for my kids and while I was dealing with all this I had to work on the weekends

and so my son became he

he actually became this national

debate champion so he's always having to be

to go to debates so I couldn't drive him and

part of my um he kind of resents

it but I'm like actually this was good for you is I

I can't do it you're gonna have to figure it out and so he

Learned how to use public transportation but my dad

would drive him like we'd figure out a way

my dad would pick him up and take him and his friends and stuff so he

he stepped in a lot as that role model

um you know and also parental figure for for Izzy

and another thing was with debate itself

so Izzy and his sister went to a high school

that didn't have sports it was like

this weird magnet school but it focused on technology

and technology and engineering and so um

and they they didn't have sports

but their big thing was the debate

team that was like the football team from

you know where it's like wow you're on the debate team

so Izzy was the debate captain and um his debate coach

oh who I have to get in touch with I just remembered

um his his debate coach became like a father figure

and Izzy was born arguing so this man like

really embraced

that talent which is yeah drove me crazy a lot um

and so he really helped Izzy shine

and Izzy actually was the

the speaker at his graduation

which unfortunately his father didn't even come to

but during his

speech which was heartbreaking he talked about

how his father wasn't there but his debate coach

really

stepped up for him and that he really appreciated

having that that man in his life so it is so

important to have those male figures that can step in

for boys and make them feel valued yeah

yeah that's you're you're so fortunate to have found

role models

like that and and and people like that or or um

that I I know that made a difference

just from from all the people I talked to

um let's talk about the new book uh

it's called when your ex turns your kids against you

and yeah oh I love it thank you yes um

you address a nightmare for many parents I can imagine

what are the practical tools that a parent

can use to to maintain

the role model status to not vilify the other parent

but while the other parent is actively

trying to dismantle it

this is such a huge topic and unfortunately I think

again it comes down to education and understanding

what alienation means because it usually starts

while you're still in the relationship with the person

like very subtle undermining like making

jokes about you to your kids minimizing your authority

I think back to

when I was still in in my relationship when Izzy

was a really little boy and um he would

you know do something that he got in trouble for and

and my background as a teacher I'd be like no you know like you're

sitting

down like you're not allowed to do whatever it was

and my ex would be like oh no no no

you don't need to listen to your mom you can take it back Izzy

and it really it not only undermined

my attempts to discipline

him and I'm not talking about punishment but just to teach him

yeah but Izzy grew up like pushing

boundaries and I think it's harmed him in a lot of

ways because because he's just like oh

I can just apologize and everything

is all better and it's like

made him a little bit less sensitive to people's feelings

it's not just

how you feel and what you think it's about

the responses to other people

and developing that empathy so um

that was a form of alienation

almost like oh Mom's really cranky

you know we don't need to listen to her

she's just this or oh you know you can take it back

I I didn't know what was

what was happening at the time

but that's one of those things um

yeah you don't even know

to set a boundary you you don't even realize that

that means that they're not on your side and and that

that that the other thing that the

the thing where you're working

together and you're on you have each other's backs

and no matter what even if you're wrong

they're gonna back you up

and then you're gonna have a chat about it later that

that experience is so foreign to you

you don't even know that it's a possibility yeah

yeah and you just think

okay maybe we just have different parenting styles but

right it's establishing

what's called loyalty conflicts where the kid

gravitates more towards one parent

than the other and especially

the target parent is made to feel like they

did something wrong and so as you get out of the

you know post separation

and and a lot of times with our clients it happens

while they're still together where the kids cut off one parent

who still lives in the house

and they want nothing to do with them

as soon as there's like a sign

that there's gonna be a separation because

they're not allowed to love both of you

again I'm not talking about

normal I'm talking about where there's like

um a personality disorder situation yeah yeah so so um

understanding

like all about what it actually means is gonna be very

helpful moving forward because

often once you do separate

and the kid comes back from the other parent's house

they will start spewing things at you

you know the other parent

says this about you and as if they believe it and it's very

very triggering because you feel like okay I got

away from this person and now my kid

is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this

and so the instinct is to often

correct the record or say no that's not true

this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did

absolutely of course it is right

yeah it's one of the worst things you can do

and here's why that's right

yeah so with the X with your ex

they are telling your child what to think and usually

we talk about well one of the big alienation

factors we talk about is

sending poisonous messages about you

from the other parent that you are either unsafe

unloving or unavailable so

when they're coming at you and saying those things that they've heard from your other parent

who's bad mouthing you

um you wanna you wanna fix it but when you

fix it and you say no that's not true it's really this

it you are doing the same thing because you're telling

your child what to think

you're not showing respect for their ability

to figure out what's real and what's not and

you have to understand that children

generally love both parents

they consider both of you authorities

so when they're telling

one thing and you're saying another

a child experiences cognitive

dissonance cause they're like okay my parents

don't lie to me

but they're telling me completely different things

yeah so I don't know what to do like I I don't

I I I I don't know who to believe um so for you instead

to when they when they come at you with these

vicious messages they're basically parroting

what your ex is saying to them and you're just like this is crazy I can't believe this it's so harmful to my kid

is to put the truth to the side of what it actually is

and understand we have to deal with their feelings

first they're dealing with a lot of anger fear

sadness grief etcetera

so for you to sit there and take it not I'm not talking

about them being totally

disrespectful on and on and on but to understand

that they are they are really really suffering

so for you to just say I

let me hear what you have to say I'm so sorry

that you feel that way I wanna hear

more of like why you think I'm like that and get them to just keep talking

and talking and talking and just

take it and deal with the truth later

but be like I'm the one who's not gonna sit here and tell you you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to think this

I'm gonna just say

I'm here so defending yourself is essentially

not validating their feelings

and so they're just gonna get defensive

and they're just gonna fight you and then they're gonna believe

the thing you don't want them to believe

right whereas if you just

try to keep your distance and you inspect

their feelings you validate

their feelings and you inspect their rationale

the claims will fall apart on their own and then you

become the credible parent and and

the other parent is has is the the non credible parent

I mean I think back to that message from Mark that

is his therapist who is like even though he's raging at you

you have to stay firm like you cannot

just be like leave me alone go away yeah you know

and it makes me think of like what you mentioned Tasha

sure parenting boys peacefully um

she's got some amazing content and she talks about how

putting kids like when they're

explosive with you and you say you need to go sit

away like get away from me

that that basically is teaching kids that they have to

behave a certain way for your love

to be with you I know I

I struggle with this my my daughter who is

3 years old is going through a phase right now where

she gets really really ugly and

it's makes me really mad

and I don't want to be really mad at her and so like I

I feel like I have to get away from it

but I also know that getting away from it is punishing

her for

you know it is creating

that situation where she feels like she has to behave

and suppress what she feels in order

to be around me and I don't know how to manage that

I I well

okay so I mean I don't know if that's the same thing like my daughter

at 3 had her terrible twos at 3 and she like

it would be

nothing like I'd say do you do you want a cheese stick

I don't want that I'd be like okay

and then she'd be like I don't want and then it would blow up for an hour

screaming

and so I put her in a room and shut the window

so the neighbors didn't think I was killing her

because I thought

she just needs to blow it off and she did and it happened

every single day over nothing so right

I found that when I did engage

with her and it's different with different developmental levels

it would just cat

it would just extended and extended

almost like the fuss period

where it's like overstimulating

them they just you just need to like sit here

I'm not punishing you I'm just being like I

I can't help you I'm gonna take a break here yeah

right yeah yeah so it's yeah I think it's different

yeah it's it's definitely different and the the

the strategies and the tactics

are different for boys and girls

that's right and different ages

and different personalities so it has to be customized

but it is not easy but especially in the moment

it's almost like you need to have a plan

ahead of time you need to know this is what's gonna happen

how am I gonna deal with it cause it's happening

yeah yeah that's that is great advice

that is absolutely

great advice and you can you can do that exercise

just sit down for

15 20 minutes an hour whatever it is and just you know

map out the decision tree right

instead of having that toxic hope of like maybe today

they'll stop it's like no they're not

yeah they're not gonna stop today

yeah and it's it's important to do that analysis

and that planning

when you're removed from the situation because it's

then

and then you're kind of on autopilot you don't have to worry too much about what you're gonna do and

you could be proud of how you responded because

because you responded in a way that was thoughtful

because you could still think back when you came up with the plan

as opposed to when you're in the thick of it

you're in your other brain you're in the

what I call the Conan the barbarian brain and

you know there's no there's no planning

there's no thinking that's happening in that brain

yeah I think humor is also very very helpful

like I know when the kids were little and they be like really mad I'd be like oh my gosh you want me to like

I mean I do that too like I'm you want me to rip

my arm off or do you and they be like what

like just sort of surprise them

you know and

but as with all things there's attention there too

I I often deflect with humor and in ways that are

healthy and unhealthy and I once

got in a situation where

and so I was doing this to the boy all the time he would get very upset

and um

and this is something that I suspect

Tasha Shore would have advised me against

if I'd known about her back then she uh uh the boy

would would get very upset he'd start crying and

the crying I guess

made me feel like a bad dad and so I would try and stop the crying

I would stop the crying by making him laugh

and then and at one point in time

he's a wise little kid man

at one point in time he goes he goes

dad stop and he's like kind of lying laughing and

kind of crying he goes I'm so frustrated

you just won't let me feel what I feel wow

I was like oh my gosh he's totally right

like let me be sad man and

so yeah and so I started doing that and

there's attention like sometimes

I'll make him laugh and sometimes I'll

let him cry it out and

yeah it's different now it's it's it's so hard I know

um with my partner with Chris sometimes he'll be like

he he he'll recognize

he's like I as a man I feel like I I wanna

when you tell me things that are upsetting to you I just wanna fix it

but you don't want me to fix it sometimes you just want me to listen

I'm like

yeah yeah that's it is anathema to I think that's an

anathema to men in general

and it's particularly anathema to

guys like me who are engineers

you know you show me something broken I need to fix it

right and

like just sitting with the discomfort is not

it's not natural to me

yeah but that's so important to even recognize

yes is that I have to I have to

it's it's something that you have

control over and but it's it's not comfortable but I

I realize I don't think I answered

your question as one way to sort of prevent this

and I was interviewing a child psychiatrist

who happens to be local I met her in real life and

she's from Romania but she

she works with kids from 3 to like 20

and she said that kids

want two things more than anything else

control and attention

and so she talked about something called the 10 minute

rule that I think is applicable for any parent she said

if you for

10 minutes when you have time

you know when you're with your kid to say

I really like how you do this or I'm really

interested in something that you're interested in

so for example

even if it's a video game and I made this mistake I probably should have done this with

with Izzy when he was interested in video games

instead of being like I don't care about video games

I should have said you know what

I know you love this game can you show me

can you explain it to me and can you show me how to play it

where the kid feels

like they're leading and they have your full attention

and I think back to when I was a little girl like with my dad

part of why I think we

had this bond was because

he really did spend time with me like I

remember so many things

where he'd come home from work he'd stand

on his head in the middle of the living room and I

was a gymnast so I loved like we'd turn on music

I had two I've two sisters

so we just like dance around and act silly

he'd let us do he taught us how to do dive rolls

over him he would take me for walks every Sunday down

the hill to get the newspaper

at the store and he'd let me buy like a little thing from the vending machine

I still have all those little

plastic toys in my jewelry box from when I was a child

we would take walks for ice cream like we always

had something that we did together

that was just me and him even though

you know I had siblings

so spending that dedicated time

even when we didn't you know we

we didn't talk about like our feelings

or open up to anything

but as as I got older like he was always an athlete so

um he was a wrestler

and him and his brother would go down to Manhattan

to New York Athletic Club and they

they taught me how to keep time and I got to throw in the white towel

so I was part of that um wow

you know like he took me jogging

I I remember when I was 21 when I had my first like

awful heartbreak

yeah and I was just crying and crying in the bathroom I was back from college and my dad's

like we're gonna go out we're gonna go out for a jog

like you don't need to say anything to me

but I'm just gonna like keep this routine

that we've had all this time so having that steady

consistent presence in my life yeah I think is

that's that's really

helped me a lot and I think that for any

parent listening to have any kind of little rituals

like these are the things your kids are gonna remember

that is absolutely right I love that 10 minute ritual

um we we've abused Tasha Shore on this but she

she has a name for that

I think she calls it special time and it's exactly

it's exactly what that is it's 10 minutes the the child

uh directs

what the activities are and you know you just

and and it's one parent

per kid and each parent has their own special time

and uh it's

it's a beautiful suggestion I'm gonna implement that uh

today I'm gonna do it starting today I it

it is such an

important thing I'm so glad I found out about it yeah I

I think it's really made a difference with my own kids

yeah and spent making

sure I have time with them even as they're young adults

and and Izzy

was saying the other weekend

Izzy and I went up we took a road trip up to um

this cute little town in upstate Connecticut and we're just walking

around and Izzy said mom you know they say that um

that by the time a kid is 18

that they will have spent like 90%

of their time like the

like the time that you would have had

it's already 90% gone however you say it like yeah

now it's just a little bit of time because he's an adult

and he's like I I don't think we fit

that I think we still spend more than

10% of our time together so yeah I'm really

happy about that what a what a what a profound

and kind of horrifying

thing is 90% of the time you spend with your kid

they're underage they're 18

yeah and then and then it's how brutal

I know I know how brutal

but it doesn't have to be true

it doesn't yeah that's right but it's you establishing

a relationship where your kids

wanna spend time with you that's right when they

become adults too yeah

like me and my dad having lunch every week I want to

yeah it's not true for your dad yeah you're you're

that's not true for your dad I love that yeah

I love that well I have I I at least I've absolutely

loved

this conversation before I let you get out of here

um I I really like to ask everybody

uh the same question uh to finish things off and so um

if you're standing in the gap for the next generation

and you can only convey

you can give a parent one principle

to help them raise a son of virtue and

emotional intelligence and excellence what

what is that principle what is the raising men

bottom line for you

it it kind of goes into what we were just talking

about is the most important thing

is to establish a relationship with your son

where they feel like they can talk to you about

whatever it is that will

protect them from all kinds of abuse

with not just you know

scary people but even in the workplace

where they can tell you anything I think it's so

important especially for boys who have a hard time

opening up our culture does that to them

they're not allowed to express themselves

but where you have a son or a daughter

and I have both and so to you

where they they feel like they can tell you anything

and you're not gonna

come at them or judge them you're just gonna accept it

I think it's it's really helpful for them

and also as a parent to feel like my kid wants to spend

time with me like that makes me feel really happy

we just went to Alaska together

that was my daughter's graduation

present it was just me her and Izzy and we did a huge

road

trip and went all over and it was one of my favorite

vacations and I thought I am so lucky

that I have these kids who actually uh are taking

their vacation

time to spend with me of course after as he was like mom you drove me crazy

we're never sharing right cab together

we we don't need to spend so much time together

next time we're getting separate lodging but right

but we did have a pretty good time so I think

doing what you can to cultivate

a relationship with your child because

the people I work with there's a lot of situations

where kids cut off a parent

so you want to make yourself bulletproof to that

and that starts with you taking

the time even those 10 minutes a day

to really focus on on your kid

because this is gonna be your your family

like for the rest of your life

yeah so why not do why not

do the best you can you don't have a choice you

of whether or

not these people are gonna be in your family they're

you're stuck with them you might as well make it awesome

yeah or or try yeah yeah

yeah do what you can to make it awesome right yeah

I love that sentiment thank you so much Lisa for

for for spending the time

I really appreciate it's been wonderful having you

on raising men no my pleasure

the book is called when your ex

turns your kids against you you can find that and more

with the links in the show notes

remember you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino